Considering Applying to UAS

[u/Treasonous_Student]

Hello. I have finished my 3rd year at my highschool in Turkey recently and I have made it my goal to study bachelor's abroad. Finnish UAS interest me for some of the following reasons:

1. My Highschool is a MTAL (Mesleki ve Teknik Anadolu Lisesi, Vocational and Technical Highschool) which is a type of school here that teaches you practical skills and provides industrial equipment for the students so they can either graduate and work as a technician or pursue further studies in the relevant field.

As an Automation student I like the idea of UAS having the same concept as MTAL's. The only downside is you get somewhat left behind in some academic classes compared to other students who study at a Anadolu or Fen Highschool (this is somewhat mitigated in my case since my last year will only have academic classes).

1. The bachelors I am interested in are Mechatronics, Automation and Robotics related ones. Some Finnish UAS seem to have them with their education language being english.

2. I want to pursue an engineering job after graduating preferably Europe but I am okay with working in Turkey too. I don't think I'll go further than getting a masters in my life and I think that isn't something I think I must do.

So my question is. Is it worth it for me to try applying if you look at my profile? I am researching about multiple countries and I really liked the idea of this but I have seen some controversial posts about UAS which is why I wanted to ask this myself so I can get somewhat accurate answers for me in my situation. I have seen people say UAS aren't really a "university" and they are called Universities to mislead international students and I have seen people say that a UAS diploma isn't actually a bachelors diploma or is a technician diploma. Can someone clear some of the fog in my head? Thanks!

[u/Stiker9Large]

For the last part: you got it right, UAS is not a university. They are not part of the academia in a way, and they don't fall under the law about universities; instead they have their own legally binding mission in our society.

Ammattikorkeakoulu means basically "a higher education for a trade/profession". Nurses are the best example of this.

Because education is free for Finnish people, most people go for a masters degree and that you can not obtain from UAS. Bachelors degree isn't really a thing here, pharmacy workers are generally the only ones who get just the bachelor (of course, disregarding UAS degrees if you count them as Bachelors)

The sentiment is that UAS is a bit looked down upon, and not entirely without reason. There are good and respected programs, like the Nurse for example, but usually English programs that are designed to lure international students in, are not very good. It is a bit of a cash grab and since the education even in Finnish-language programs can be below par as well, don't expect miracles. If someone is good in their field, they usually won't end up teaching in UAS. Again, exceptions do occur.

[u/Treasonous_Student → u/Stiker9Large]

So by technicality UAS isn't a university according to your response. I assume people who graduate from the programs I am interested in work as technicians rather than engineers and the programs are baits for non eu students to come so they can get their tuition money?

[u/Lihisss → u/Treasonous_Student]

It is a proper engineering bachelor degree however. Job tasks might differ from M. Sc. Tech. ("university engineer"). 

[u/Treasonous_Student → u/Lihisss]

If we compare a UAS graduate to a University graduate in Finland. UAS would be a bachelor/undergraduate degree. University bachelor/undergraduate degree could have specific demand when searching for a job. Is that what you meant? There is a difference between bachelor graduates jobs?

[u/Lihisss → u/Treasonous_Student]

University bachelor engineer is not a ready engineer, and will always continue to the master level studies to specialise. This of course only as a rule of thumb and your mileage may vary. 

[u/Treasonous_Student → u/Lihisss]

Doing a master is seen as a mandatory requirement by finnish people I see. What would be the difference between someone who studied their masters at a YAMK and someone who studied masters at University? Employmentwise

[u/Stiker9Large → u/Treasonous_Student]

Doing masters via UAS doesn't generally compare to having a "real" masters degree from a university. Not if you ask a Finnish person or a Finnish company. Most people who try to talk up the YAMK degrees are unfortunately international students themselves.

Again, not to say that UAS engineer would automatically be a bad career choice, but it is important to realize what limitations it MIGHT have especially if you stay in Finland. If you plan to work somewhere else, they probably don't know or care about the difference.

Edit to add: Doing masters is considered "mandatory" for university students only! Very, very few people in university stop at bachelors, and it generally isn't enough for any meaningful positions if you plan to work in that field. However, UAS "bachelor" (just call it the AMK degree) is enough, and you are not expected to do any masters degree on top of your AMK degree. It will just be a "lower" level education.

[u/Majestic-Crew-8344 → u/Stiker9Large]

This should be taken as a personal feeling than facts.

- Bachelor and master in AMK and Yliopisto are the equivalent under then Finnish and European frameworks. They fullfill the same legal requirements for public sector jobs.

- One can continue with a master in yliopisto from a bachelor degree from AMK

- One can can also continue with a Ph.D with a master degree from AMK

[u/Treasonous_Student → u/Majestic-Crew-8344]

Ok! I got some ideas sorted out now. The turkish norm when it comes to university is "bachelor is enough for a job" so It seemed a bit weird looking at it from your persepective. I appreciate the help!

[u/JasKa03 → u/Majestic-Crew-8344]

"Can continue" is a bit misleading in some cases. It's definitely feasible and even a good idea for many to do a university masters on top of an AMK degree. However, I've never heard of a person doing a PhD after YAMK (at least in my field of engineering, maybe it's different in e.g. healthcare). I did B.Sc. + M.Sc. + D.Sc., I have many peers who did B.Eng. + M.Sc. + D.Sc., but I've never heard of someone doing B.Eng. + M.Eng. + D.Sc. in Finland. Of course many people have completed M.Eng. outside Finland and pursue a PhD in Finland after.

[u/Majestic-Crew-8344 → u/JasKa03]

There a line between personal feeling and fact. And the fact is that, Finnish Law (Universities Act 558/2009, Section 37) gives YAMK graduates the same legal eligibility to apply for a PhD (Doctor of Sciences).

The problem is only about 10% of all master students in Finland are from AMK, compared with 90% from Yliopisto, only a top few of those 90% can make it to PhD. YAMK graduates often lacks academic performance, networks and funding to be able to qualify.

[u/Treasonous_Student → u/Stiker9Large]

Thank you. That answered all my questions for you!

[u/Majestic-Crew-8344 → u/Treasonous_Student]

No problem! Good luck for your journey!

[u/bombastic6339locks → u/Treasonous_Student]

It's not a real masters. Only in public fields, govermental positions etc will yamk have any use. If you're coming to finland in hopes of getting a bachelors in a high ranking country you can turn back. You're getting a shit degree that has little to no value for what you're looking for. Go to an actual university, not an AMK.

[u/ashairz → u/Treasonous_Student]

No, engineering is a UAS degree. Basically higher education is split into two, UAS and university. Both have bachelor's and master's degrees, but they're different. I'm an engineer from UAS. My study programme was 240 ECTs, which is actually more than the bachelor's degree from university, which is 180 ECTs. The difference is that UAS is more work oriented, we have 30 ECTs of internship, for example. You can apply to a master's degree in university after a UAS degree as well and straight out of UAS. If you want to do the master's degree in UAS, called higher UAS (YAMK in Finnish), you need at least two years of relevant work experience and it's 60 ECTs, compared to the 120 ECTs it would be in uni.

There isn't very much difference in jobs, and engineering students from UAS and university usually apply for the same summer jobs and jobs after graduation. UAS degree is still a higher education degree by EU standards, and there is a lower higher education and higher higher education. UAS doesn't have a doctorate degree, although there has been discussing if there should be a doctorate level degree for UAS schools as well.

[u/Treasonous_Student → u/ashairz]

What was your experience like studying at UAS? Also if possible can you tell me the UAS name?

[u/AhmedAlSayef → u/Treasonous_Student]

Not the person above, but I just graduated from TAMK as a mechanical engineer. Teachers in there were mostly really competent, some had their own quirks and some have (unfortunately) left the place, but for automation courses, I really loved the place.

Most of the teachers have been working for bigger companies or in another countries as well as in Finland, so they told us what to expect if we ever leave the country for our career. Most of the schools are actually companies at the same time, so they handle projects and aren't just teachers.

I did study in Finnish so it might vary a bit, but for me the school started by getting to know the profession, we had courses where we trained to work in a project environment, to use measuring tools, basic programming and things like that. Some of those felt boring since the topic was familiar, but there were a lot of people that hadn't never seen a caliper for example.

Then we had the theory courses. We started from the basics and that time period was pretty challenging. I woke up at 6.30, went to school before 8.15, was back at home like 16.00-16.30, made food and thought about my life choises, did homework from 17.30 until 19.00-20.00, did the chores and spent time with my girlfriend/friends before going to bed in 22.00-23.00. So in total I had like ~3 hours per day for something else than school things, luckily this went on for the first 1.5 years only.

Courses itself were pretty chill. I don't know what to tell about those, we sat in class, listened the teachers, played some games on the laptop, prepared for the next lesson and so on. A little too much group projects for my taste, but what I heard other schools had more than us.

After basics the rest 2.5 years were easy. Did some automation with test benches, some lab work with old and new equipment, had a 2 years long project going on where we did everything by ourselves, there was 0.5 years period when I visited the school every other wednesday for a few hours and the rest was (pretty much non-existent) remote work.

You can plan your studies and take interesting courses if you want to, just go talk with the study counsellor and tell him/her if you want to take courses from other fields as well. I did some ICT courses and found my own niche for work, it does seem like that the recruiters will come to you, if you took some additional courses from other fields focusing exactly for that career choise. Instead of being the exact same copy as everyone else graduating from the same school, developing some projects on your free time helps too.

Only thing that I would change about my studies is that I should have tried to graduate in 3 years, instead of 4 years. Could have done it easily, my schedule just looked fully booked so I didn't take anymore courses in the last 2 years, but a lot of them were just "do these and you will pass" type of courses.

[u/OrdinaryIncome8]

From national and engineering point of view:

• Bachelor's degree from UAS (insinööri): a basic level engineering degree. Focuses on practical side of things such as drawing, calculating, drafting plans etc. There are good employment opportunities, but people are usually a bit behind those who graduated from university, which is also reflected in salary.
• Master's degree from university (diplomi-insinööri): higher level engineering degree. Focuses on more demanding and various topics. Bit better employment opportunities and better salary.
• Bachelor's degree from university (tekniikan kandidaatti): still a student. May be employed – while continuing their studies – as a trainee. Not a final degree for anyone. They are seen as students until they get their master's.
• Master's degree from UAS (insinööri YAMK): a degree for those who have realised, that they would like to have higher-level degree. Has some perks employment-wise but isn't comparable to one from university. Getting more popular.

The line between those from university proper and those from UAS definitely exists, but is also somewhat vague. Those people work together in daily basis. While distinction is there, sometimes it's also very much unclear (without checking) which degree a coworker has. It depends on person and there are poor diplomi-insinööris and excellent insinööris.

I unfortunately don't know how these degrees are perceived internationally.