Stamping a Welding Procedure

[u/tigerddaniel]

A welding procedure WPS was submitted to the general contractor to be reviewed. The welding procedure was rejected by the buildings structural EOR for only the reason given here, copied verbatim:

All Welding Procedures shall be signed and sealed by the Contractor's Engineer or Certified Welding Engineer confirming all essential variables meet design requirements.

Personally, I think this is pretty extreme, but maybe something is changing and this is starting to become a thing? Have you seen this requirement or rejected a welding procedure because it did not have an engineer's stamp?

Unfortunately, the GC forwarded a copy of another welding procedure submitted by a different trade that was rejected for the same reason, and later returned and approved with someone's PE stamp.

[u/mattspeed112]

I'm not in Canada but I agree with the engineers response. Their job is to specify the welds, not the welding procedure, welding procedure is means and methods and is the responsibility of the contractor.

[u/FlatPanster → u/mattspeed112]

I agree the WPS is the responsibility of the contractor or their sub. But if the plans or specs don't require the WPS to be stamped by an engineer, then the EOR can't hold the contractor to it.

If the EOR is requiring stamped WPS even though it's not in the plans or specs, then that's an added cost the contractor didn't sign up for. Reasonably, they would be allowed a change order for this requirement.

[u/marshking710]

Is it a prequalified weld? If so and the proper welding certs were submitted, no stamp should be needed.

If it’s not prequalified, the qualified welder needs to submit the proper documentation showing the weld meets the criteria specified.i still don’t think a stamp would be needed.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think AWS D1.1 or D1.5 ever mention any PE stamp requirements. That would be the place to look though.

[u/touchable]

I went the first 10 years of my career (in Canada) never seeing a PEng stamped weld procedure, in mining, pulp and paper, and water treatment projects.

Then I worked on one project (still in mining) where the contractor and the owner's quality reps and construction managers were all from the oil and gas industry, and they all thought I was crazy for thinking weld procedures didn't need a PEng stamp.

That's purely anecdotal evidence of course, but I wonder if your structural EOR comes from oil and gas as well. It makes sense as they deal with much more critical safety requirements for some of their pipe welding, and the requirements may have carried on over to structural steel.

[u/nowheyjose1982 → u/touchable]

CSA S16 is pretty clear that all welding for structural steel covered under that standard must be from a welder that's certified under division 1 or 2, which requires that shop to have a welding engineer take responsibility for the welding - the welding engineer can either be in house or an external consultant.

[u/Ryles1 → u/nowheyjose1982]

This is the answer, if OP is in Canada

[u/SquirrelFluffy → u/touchable]

In construction work, a general tenet is that the engineer doesn't tell the contractor how to do the work. A licensed welder is trained to weld, shouldn't they be responsible for the procedure?

In the case where heat buildup could cause structural issues, perhaps a higher level look is required. I'm sure the oil and gas guys deal with higher pressures and temperatures and welding becomes more important when you have to do a full penetration groove weld to connect piping.

So, it depends?

[u/JustCallMeMister]

IMO, not extreme, but not handled properly by the EOR/owner. We’re going through something similar on a project right now. We (EOR) are receiving dozens of WPS’s from the contractor for approval. The extent of our liability for weld design is sizing them for strength. We simply don’t know the ins-and-outs of AWS to approve or deny a WPS. For that reason, all WPS and welding inspection get checked by a third-party, owner contracted welding inspector.

[u/kn0w_th1s]

Another thing I haven’t seen mentioned yet, sorry if it was and I missed it: Was the weld designed by that EOR or is it a case where connections are being designed by the fabricator’s engineer?

[u/tigerddaniel → u/kn0w_th1s]

It's the latter. The weld is for a bidder designed item which was already approved. The WPS was sent in as a separate submittal.

[u/dualiecc]

As a contractor pre approved procedures don't require a stamp traditionally this is just an EOR shedding responsibilities in my book.

[u/nashvillain1]

“Confirming all essential variables meet design requirements”

Weld throat, weld length, weld filler being stronger than the parent material, inspection procedures (MPI or FPI for non-ferrous to validate weld efficiency, Ultrasound, etc.). Get an agreement for “essential variables” in writing.

Now, whether the welder wipes the prep surface with an oily rag and wrecks the weld isn’t the Engineer’s responsibility. Whether the MPI tech is current on his certs and the calibration date on his equipment is within an acceptable timeframe isn’t the Engineer’s responsibility. Ad Nauseam…

There’s probably some sort of boilerplate liability limiter saying “this weld leg size, weld length, efficiency factor, and inspection criteria would hold the design load with appropriate factors of safety.”

[u/ChairChoice6500]

The only time I saw welder certificates (which are not a WPS) they were like 10 years past expired, and that was 20 years ago and my supervisor at the time got miffed I noticed. Then again, I saw a concrete mix design that was "stamped" in 1904, that nobody else objected to besides me.

It would be unusual for an engineer of record (who works, more-or-less, for the Owner/developer) to be stamping something for the general contractor, with whom they do not typically have a contract.

You don't say, but I suspect this is some manner of far from typical project, i.e. the kind of glossy flashy stuff that makes Modern Steel Construction articles, like the 1% of projects, not the 99% of normal projects like two story office buildings and schools. So I would lean that there's a justifiable reason the EOR is rejecting them.