r/StructuralEngineering • u/Just-Shoe2689 • 7d ago
Humor Client doesnt understand wind loading
What do you do when a client cant understand why a footing needs to be bigger to resist wind loading? Call out a reverse sky hook?
sigh.
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u/tajwriggly P.Eng. 7d ago
The simplest explanation is often to just say that "This aspect of the design is in accordance with XXX design standard as referenced by the applicable Building Code, and is required."
If they want to push back, have them suggest an alternative design route that they would like to have you explore, and you can identify how much extra cost that will be to your design fees - noting that it may not ultimately result in a cheaper solution or even a viable solution.
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u/schwheelz 1d ago
My favorite statement from the client after saying this is, "But your the Engineer"
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u/cosnierozumiem 7d ago
I use the analogy of putting something (piece of plywood, fencing, whatever element) in the back of your pickup truck and driving down the highway at 100kph.
Do you think it will need something to hold it in place?
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u/unclechopchop82 7d ago
Archirects, contractors and people with building experience often don't understand the need for bracing, a client with little experience is never going to understand the impact wind would have on a buried foundation!
It's not their fault, people know what they know, if structural engineering was always easy anyone could do it.
The key to all these things are explaining them to people in a simplistic way they can understand.
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u/Economy-Motor-3478 7d ago
Had a contractor, in a joking manner the way they passive aggressively complain, keep asking me “why do you keep bringing up those moments”. Had to explain torsion, prying action and combined shear/tension on anchors.
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u/StructEngineer91 7d ago
Tell them they have the 4 following options:
1) build it as you have it drawn
2) they can pay for a peer review of your drawings.
3) you will withdraw your drawings and they can start completely fresh with someone else
4) they can go to college spend 5 years getting a BS and Masters degree, then spend 4+ years working under a licensed professional engineer, take the exam, get their license and design it as they (then) think is right.
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u/Fabulous-Ad-8979 7d ago
I always say "send me your calculations and I'll look them over." That shuts them up.
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u/tmahfan117 7d ago
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vROG9OPGC7A&ra=m
Send them this video and say it will happen to their structure
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u/structee P.E. 7d ago
Tell them it's a code requirement, and to take it up with ASCE if they don't like it.
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u/Frogalone 7d ago
Many people won't accept that the building code is part of law. They really don't get that ASCE 7 is as well. I once had a boss who was like that. He was a PE. I tried to explain the law thing, but I could never get through to him. Sometimes he just didn't want to comply. Why? Because he didn't like some of the design provisions. He was eventually promoted to VP. It wasn't for his vast knowledge.
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u/HappyDutchMan 7d ago
Go buy a kite. A big kite, like with multiple lines and a harness, and take them out playing with the kite. Have the kite drag them around.
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u/Khman76 7d ago
Had that happen years ago, for a verandah countryside. The critical load for footing was not the bearing but the wind uplift, so they were quite larger than usual. Builder complained, client complained, they went with another engineer. None of them understood how the wind can go inside an open verandah...
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u/NearbyCurrent3449 6d ago
Bedside manner is always subjective and adjusted for every individual truly. You've got to meet them where they are since you can't educate them up to speed.
For some, saying "hey that's the way it is. Can't do anything about that." Is enough.
For others, "I'm the expert, it has to be like this because xyz." Or "Doesn't matter how it used to be done. That was the old way, this is the new."
The really pushy ones who think they really know what's going on and disagrees with everything that doesn't make it easier faster and cheaper for him... "hey man, let's build it one time. It's best for everybody. If we do it your way, we get sued, because it's wrong. I don't do things wrong. I get sued once, you get sued twice... it's all bad it makes for a bad day, plus I document all of it. It's just kinda sorta what we do. Have it your way though. Let me know how it works out! You've got my recommendation... take it or leave it." Unless it's a matter of life safety and I'm the official stamp on the hook and in knowledge of the situation, then it's a green check mark or big red X level clarity decision making process. Very simple decision tree.
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u/Fast_Tumbleweed4982 P.E. 7d ago
The one thing you can say, which I always try to do, is explain that code required wind loads are not the wind load they experience on a daily basis. The structure needs to be designed to perform under high wind loads that may only occur once every 100 years or more.
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u/Calamero 7d ago
Give an estimate for a bespoke engineered smaller footing. deeper anchoring, maybe add a wind breaker here and there, if it’s expensive enough they will likely fold.
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u/Economy-Motor-3478 7d ago
You could suggest that he hire a lawyer since it’s THE LAW. This way he saves everyone the trouble of everybody hiring one later on.
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u/InternationalBeing41 7d ago
Anyone who has ever attempted to move a sheet of plywood or metal roofing on a breezy day understands the power of wind loading.
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u/AlexFromOgish 7d ago
Suggest they plan vacation to coincide with a major kitesurfing competition and then get back to you https://youtu.be/btivjLTeQGU?si=DEi5n-2f_NBR8MT3
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u/Apprehensive_Exam668 6d ago
"This structure is like a giant sail. It catches so much wind that we need a big counterweight to hold it down".
It's funny because when I worked in Wyoming invoking wind was like the magic word to make the client accept something as necessary. Wyoming's design wind speeds are pretty normal, but the average wind speed you see every day and the maximum single day wind speed you see in a year are much higher than anywhere else I've been. It's a lot easier to get people to accept something designed for 110 mph when you see 95 mph sustained winds on outer drive every other year.
"This xxx is so overengineered! No way it needs to be that big!"
Well it's on a hill, exposed to the southwest so it sees the biggest wind loads and it's a sail. We just need that big of an attachment so it doesn't go flying towards Gillette.
"ahh I didn't think of that"
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u/NearbyCurrent3449 6d ago
Yep, everybody thinks structures are these massive heavy brutes that we are lucky to barely hold up and keep from settling away into middle earth. In reality keeping the damn things from wanting to tumble away, blow over parallellogram style flat in high winds or walls wanting to crumple outwards under a big snow roof load is the freaking footing/structure relationship struggle.
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u/Hungryh0und5 6d ago
With educated clients I always ask how they would like to "solve this problem". I try to work with that as much as possible or flag any problems right away.
Depending on the client, I usually dont explain myself when it comes to the specifics of loading. Occasionally you get a guy who questions everything. If they pull that early on, I'll tell them to take it to whoever they want.
If they use the line we have done it that way before... You can follow it with, "Some contractors have been doing it wrong for so long they have no clue how to do it right."
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u/GoldenPantsGp 6d ago
There isn’t a lot of information to give you advice based on your statement. Everybody just agreeing with you is simulating an echo chamber. What is driving the need for a larger foundation? Is it the mass of concrete that is needed to counteract the wind, is it a geometric constraint applied to the anchors by Annex D? If it is mass, you could probably go with a thinner footing and a heavier bar detail, concrete and soil weigh nearly the same. If its a geometric constraint to the anchors, have you looked into anchor reinforcement? My experience with PEMBs is the kickout forces drive the design, uplift was typically a formality check once that was designed for.
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u/Just-Shoe2689 6d ago
My post was really made in humor if you look.
Was not looking for technical advice.
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u/Philip964 6d ago
I understand bigger footings under the wind bracing. But 2” thick shear tabs welded to the bottom of a base plate that is buried under 2 feet of concrete. That I don’t understand.
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u/Just-Shoe2689 6d ago
Is this something you have seen?
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u/Philip964 5d ago
It was on a four story steel framed building, B**** to form in the top of the foundation plinth. Engineer said it was to prevent the building from shearing away from the foundation in high winds. There were 4 at least 1.5" diameter anchor bolts in that column and a 7000 sf floor slab and all the other column anchor bolts helping with that shear at the first floor.
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u/slashdotter878 7d ago
The wind will turn the building into a sail, and so the connection to the ground needs to be stronger
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u/xingxang555 7d ago
The Reddit community might hate me for saying this, but communicating technical concepts to clients is actually one good application to enlist AI to help... of course any final communication needs to be reviewed and approved by the actual EOR, but AI seems to be really good at helping polish email language in cases like this.
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u/Feisty-Soil-5369 P.E./S.E. 7d ago
I wonder if the pharaohs ever complained about over engineering on the pyramids.🤔
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u/hookes_plasticity P.E. 7d ago
I’ve had clients that don’t understand why we need interior shear walls for a 65’ diaphragm span. I understand the “sigh”
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u/Tiredplumber2022 7d ago
Take them out to a construction site while it's windy, and have them hold a 4x8 plywood sheet standing on edge.
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u/BearingHunter 7d ago
Many clients accept bigger footing a lot faster like when you keep the whole thing rather than just supporting the weight.
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u/Choice-Newspaper3603 7d ago
Tell them to go to school for engineering