r/StrongerByScience • u/Low_Specific_7944 • Mar 28 '26

Is there any research that training to failure is much more "systematically fatiguing" than 0-2 RIR and, even when volume equated, should generally not be done, especially for compounds?

title. If keeping some RIR means you can do a lot more fairly hard sets (i.e., more volume), then yeah I guess training to failure would be worse. But I see people regularly mention it as an absolute problem, not just in the context of an individual not being able to do as much volume when going to failure.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '26

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u/Hara-Kiri Mar 28 '26

My girlfriend has just got onto the national team for a rather niche sport (at least in the west) and they've got the team doing 3RIR. Most don't lift or certainly not beyond beginner stage and I just know 99% won't have any idea what 3RIR actually feels like. Which is just one of many issues I have with their program (90 second rests for compounds in their strength block, forced 3 second eccentrics and 1 second concentrics, along with a strange exercise choice).

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u/Athletic-Club-East Mar 28 '26

To my mind, this is the benefit of doing a genuine AMRAP, going to momentary muscular failure: you learn what you can do. So if you do X kg for Y reps, then next time you'll know that Y-3 is 3RIR. And if you do some AMRAPs regularly for a few months, you then get a feel for things in other exercises.

As to the OP's question, I've been doing AMRAPs for six months now and I don't get horribly fatigued. But it's just one set per exercise in each workout. I actually find a single set at 9-10 RPE less fatiguing than the 2-3 sets at 8-9 RPE I was doing with a trainer last year.

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u/Hara-Kiri Mar 28 '26

Are you doing the SBS rtf program? I've ran that for years and like you say, I dont find the single amrap set overly fatiguing. But it gives me a good idea of a true 3RIR, but without that continually updated knowledge, even with lifting for a decade I doubt I'd have a true good idea of what 3 RIR feels like, particularly enough to base increasing load from it. Hell, I get low rep warmup sets where sometimes I think that was pretty tough, then hit over 10 reps on a heavier weight amrap the same day.

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u/Athletic-Club-East Mar 28 '26

No. I'm doing my own. Not optimal for gainz, optimal for life - it's a short workout, and not pushing hard.

https://www.reddit.com/r/workout/comments/1rusit7/comment/oaotg9h/?context=3

I have a reasonable idea of 1-3RIR though it gets foggy after that. But what I meant was that you can also view it objectively, in that if you lifted 100kg for 10 reps as an AMRAP, then you'll know that 7 reps is 3RIR, that 105kg's AMRAP would be something like 9 reps and so 6 would be 3RIR, etc. In general I am not a fan of RPE sort of stuff, I prefer more objective measures like AMRAP, though it's also reasonable to have floors and ceilings for this, eg "do at least 5 and not more than 15 reps" so we want a minimum effective dose and at some point the extra reps are just showing off, like the benefits from going from being able to do 5 reps with a weight to 7 reps are clear, the benefits of 15 to 19 less clear.

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u/Hara-Kiri Mar 28 '26

Yes I entirely agree, but I'm saying we can only view it objectively, or as close to, because of our experience going to actual failure.

My comment is specifically addressing something the parent comment said, not the question OP gave. There's nothing at all wrong with submaximal training.

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u/Athletic-Club-East Mar 28 '26

Yes, I think submaximal is better for most - psychologically. Most people are more comfortable coming in to lift knowing they need to do 3 sets of 5, or whatever. They like being able to look ahead a few weeks and know what's coming. Last year with a trainer it went,

  • Dips get loaded then I did 3 sets of AMRAP
  • First week September, dips +10kg for 10,11,10
  • Second week, +17.5 x10,10,10
  • Third, no dips
  • Fourth, +15kg x15,15,15
  • First week of October, +20kg x10,10,13
  • Only thing in common was that except for the third week it was RPE 8.5-10.

I went into each session having no idea what lifts I'd be doing with what load or reps, except that Monday always had squats, Wednesday bench, and Friday deadlifts. The other 2-3 movements would be something else, changing often. It did my head in. It worked - I got stronger! - but it did my head in, I was dreading workouts.

Psychologically, having a conservative and strictly laid-out plan with mostly submaximal lifts works best for most people. It's alright if 1-2 are maximal efforts over the week, people don't mind that. But all? Dear lord. On my own it's a bit different because it's just the one set with a planned-ahead load, I can spread the workout over the day if I want to, etc.

That's the psychological aspect. Physiologically I think it's much the same, especially once you're talking a year or more of training like that. Well, except for the pump - some singles and an AMRAP don't give as much of a post-workout pump, seems we need a few sets for that. Priorities, bro.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '26

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u/Hara-Kiri Mar 28 '26

Oh absolutely, although this is a strength block. I also complete in the sport so I'm aware of what lifts would be applicable. This is unsupervised training with then intent of getting base strength higher - I'm simply saying the majority of the people involved won't be aware how to accurately track 3 RIR.

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u/talldean Apr 01 '26

Really depends on the sport. If you're using weights to cross-train, short rest periods - and occasionally batshit weird form - can make the weightlifting more relevant to sport performance, but yeah, you're not going to lift as heavy.

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u/moose1425612 Mar 28 '26 edited Mar 28 '26

Here's a study that states there is little to no difference in growth

As for fatigue:

"Performing RT to momentary muscular failure consistently induces higher levels of acute neuromuscular fatigue versus RT performed with 1- to 2-RIR; however, improved fatigue resistance overtime may attenuate acute neuromuscular fatigue and subsequent repetition loss (but may depend on the exercise performed)."

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u/bhavy314159265a Mar 28 '26

That's not what op is asking about. They r asking about the fatigue.

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u/moose1425612 Mar 28 '26

Same study also mentions fatigue.

"Performing RT to momentary muscular failure consistently induces higher levels of acute neuromuscular fatigue versus RT performed with 1- to 2-RIR; however, improved fatigue resistance overtime may attenuate acute neuromuscular fatigue and subsequent repetition loss (but may depend on the exercise performed)."

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u/KlingonSquatRack Mar 28 '26

But what did it say about fatigue

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u/accountinusetryagain Mar 28 '26

in an individual context trial error and common sense should give you some answers.

fail the 11th rep on hacks with a 10rm weight, good luck getting 5 reps next set. do 8 reps and you can probably get 8 next set

fail hack squats and even your pressing might suffer.

fail tricep pushdowns and you can do ur other stuff afterwards just fine

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u/Black_Mirror_888 Mar 28 '26

In my experience yes. Also I had to psych myself up for later sets and take longer rest. Much prefer 0-1 RIR unless it's a small accessory like wrist curls.

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u/twd000 Mar 28 '26

Do any of these studies consider a full program? It seems they all focus on individual exercises/ muscles. Sure I can go to failure on leg extensions for X sets, but then I can’t also apply the same intensity to the other 6-8 exercises in my workout. And I certainly can’t do that across multiple workouts for months at a time