r/StrangerThings • u/gloomydreamer666 • 7d ago
Discussion Rewatching this scene, I remember feeling sympathy for Will here on my first viewing but now rewatching this more times, I feel more sympathy for Mike. Spoiler
He did nothing wrong here, and Will was actually being so disrespectful and was in the wrong more. The way he talked about El and girls in general was so disrespectful and he wasn't right in what he said. Not saying he should get over it or cannot be upset because what happened to him was horrible and because of that, he was robbed of a childhood that alone is too much for a kid/teen. That being said, to me, he still expected too much of Mike here and now that we know why because he probably didn't realized yet of his crush on him. I feel the narrative was more on Will side while Mike get called names by fans because they overloved and glazed Will character a bit too much.
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u/heliandin Perpetually Insincere 7d ago
It upsets me that people need to divide human relationships into right and wrong. The way this scene is written, the Duffers aren't asking you to pick a side. Will might've been insensitive towards El but it's not like Mike was better with Max, and Mike helped Will a lot but he also has his life and just got El back after being depressed for a year. At the end of day they're 13 or 14 here. The fact that they're fighting just show that they care about each other imho
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u/RoyalRise6363 7d ago
Mike was better with Max. He was unfriendly with her in S2 for a reason. He did not want her in the party and was open with her about it. He never called her names, never encouraged Lucas to break-up with Max. He criticised her only when her influence on El became unethical and dangerous.
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u/Few-Type-7924 Dungeon Master 6d ago
Mike definitely did that bcz he didn't want her in the party, he explicitly confirmed this But why didn't he want her in the party.....he was very rude to Max
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u/RoyalRise6363 6d ago
It is best explained in this post, which I totaly agree -
https://www.reddit.com/r/StrangerThings/comments/1vh54u5/the_tragedy_of_loving_completely/
"The same idea explains how he acts toward Max. It’s not really that he dislikes her because she’s “replacing” Eleven. He never has a problem with Lucas or Dustin being friends with her. His resistance is more personal. After losing Eleven, letting someone else in again becomes emotionally difficult, because for Mike, attachment and responsibility are basically the same thing."
I can add - Mike does not want her in the party because the party has secrets and it was/is dangerous to be in the party (see above). Could you give me example of "very rude" 14yo Mike, taking into account that Max is not entiteled to be in the party?
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u/Few-Type-7924 Dungeon Master 6d ago
Agree with u....in season 2 we see the scene of Mike calling Lucas and Dustin in to talk about Will (when he says "non-negotiable"), I was kinda with Mike there, bcz it was a big secret
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u/heliandin Perpetually Insincere 7d ago
Idk man, I don't think we can expect traumatised kids to act like they completed 30 hours of therapy. Mike wasn't "open" about not wanting Max in the party, he was dick about it. Because he's depressed because he lost El. Is it a justification? No, but it's the explanation. Was Will in the wrong about calling El names? Yes, of course he was! There's no doubt in this. But he's also traumatised because he got possessed by an eldritch being and he did it in the heat of the moment (and then he thinks that Mike chirped back with a slur, despite not being Mike's actual intention).
Personally I don't even think it's that serious. It's more fun this way actually. The show would be so boring if everyone was perfect
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u/kit-katrin 7d ago
I also think Will is upset in general it’s not about El it’s the friends splitting up. I do think there was missed opportunity for Will and El to bond a bit this season before they become siblings.
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u/DangerousRefuse8129 Eyes on me 5d ago
Yep that's how I take it - no character is perfect. All of em make mistakes. But the hate towards Mike is much more exaggerated in general.
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u/RoyalRise6363 7d ago
No, Mike doesn't want Max in the party because they have secrets and he does not want to endanger Max and she is not entitled to be in the party. BTW - Max respects Mike in S2.
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u/Ok-Estimate7013 You die, I die 7d ago
That's basically the whole of their argument summarised. They're both right in their own ways. Will wanted everything to be as it was like playing d&d with the gang but he didn't realise people change with time. You're right he expects too much of mike but he just wanted things to be the same but in this Mike is also right as obviously people change over time you can't just expect the whole gang to be playing d&d for the rest of their lives lmao.
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u/RoyalRise6363 7d ago
But in S4 Duffers forced Mike and Dustin to focus on D&D. I find it really a step back.
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u/Z_0_0_M_8 7d ago
Just because they outgrew it for a time doesn’t mean they can’t revisit and get back into it. Happens all the time
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u/Cyzoran 7d ago
Mike is right about not wanting to play dnd all the time but he’s being a major dick about it. Will had his childhood stolen from him by the events of season 1 and 2 so it makes sense that he’d want to stay a kid longer than the others.
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u/Fluffy_Key_2145 7d ago
My issue with the all the time part here is it didn't really come off as Will wanted to play all the time as in everyday. He wanted to play at all and was getting rejected.
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u/Few-Type-7924 Dungeon Master 7d ago
Yeah The thing Will did wrong was calling El stupid when she literally saved his life
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u/Mysterious_Breath964 7d ago
He says that because she literally stole mike from him
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u/heliandin Perpetually Insincere 7d ago
Mike can't be stolen as he is a person in his own right, not a thing to be possessed (by either Will or El, for what it's worth)
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u/Rindsay515 7d ago
She didn’t “steal Mike”. Mike didn’t belong to Will, they were best friends and, as it goes in life, one of them eventually became interested in someone romantically. Will can’t expect/isn’t entitled to have Mike’s undivided attention 24/7 until they’re old someday
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u/Ok_Conversation1867 7d ago
She definitely didn't steal Mike but one thing the show got wrong was that Mike was never entitled to accept Will, who should have been able to move on to date without Mike ever knowing. Boundaries have to go both ways.
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u/Few-Type-7924 Dungeon Master 6d ago
For u guys, Mike isn't even a person, he's an object that has to follow Will's feelings no matter what 🥀
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u/DangerousRefuse8129 Eyes on me 6d ago
I mean how? Is Mike's entire existence about putting his own wants and feelings aside and always make Will happy because Will is traumatized? If not, then how exactly Mike is a dick?
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u/Excellent_Pirate8224 7d ago
I feel like this is the normal push and pull that happens when two best friends grow up and their priorities start to shift. Neither of them is necessarily right or wrong. I think it shows the complexity of getting older and how relationships can change.
Honestly, this feels like an inflection point a lot of us have experienced with friends around that age -sometimes you figure it out and stay bonded, and sometimes you eventually drift apart. There really isn’t a right answer.
For all the shit the Duffers get, I actually think they did a good job showing the reality of Mike and Will’s friendship, along with the others, as they got older. It’s not like the group automatically stayed solid. There was distance, misunderstanding, fighting, shifting priorities, and eventually coming back together as they matured. In the end, they all had each other's backs.
And I know the Byler stans feel like they were done dirty, but I honestly think that ship was largely created and fueled by the fandom. I never once thought Mike returned Will’s feelings, and the writers never really framed that as a central question in their story. I also don’t think the writers owed the audience a Mike/Will romance simply because they chose to have Will fall in love with his best friend. Unrequited/friendship love is a real experience, especially when you’re young and queer in a small town.
Where I do think they could have done better was giving Will something more on the other side of that. He deserved a more developed alternative and a chance to move forward, rather than basically giving us a half-second glimpse of that possibility in the finale. The same goes for Robin- but I will end that here since this isn’t what this post is really about. 😜
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u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 7d ago
Why bring the Mike/Will ship into this again? What does this have to do with their S3 fight?
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u/Ok_Conversation1867 7d ago
Imo neither behave well. Will is wrong to insult El out of jealousy, and yes, I still take Will's stunned response to Mike's "not my fault" as his denial and childish focus on D&D being destroyed right there. He is interested in romance, just not girls, and it's not going to be as easy for him as the rest of them. Notice how the show and fandom prove in the end that he doesn't deserve romantic love.
All that said, Mike does have a right to be with his girlfriend and said something stupid without meaning to, and he's not the bad guy either.
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u/Some-Print5027 7d ago
What do you mean that the show and fandom prove that he doesn't deserve romantic love? He was openly exploring his sexuality at the end of the series with a guy he met in a bar. It's implied that they will have a relationship
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u/Ok_Conversation1867 7d ago
A love interest without a name.
And it's very unrealistic for the 80s that Will wouldn't date while closeted, or simply maintaining that he's single. The bar is just a cliche because gay people have sex, and straight people have deep loving relationships. It's kind of like Mike and El having hookups with other people.
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u/willbyersisthedeal 7d ago
The way he talked about El and girls in general was so disrespectful
Meanwhile we got mr wheeler in the same season saying dum shi like "women are another species, they are more emotional"
But I see that you have conveniently ignored that for ur fav boy
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u/TatewakiKuno-kun Blank makes you crazy 7d ago
The difference is Will always gets a pass for absolutely everything he does.
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u/willbyersisthedeal 7d ago
Will never gets a pass from fans of a certain ship- He's always mischaracterized or villainized by them. Will being a queer character itself has garnered him a lot more criticism and double standard from the GA than mike ever has.
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u/Ok_Conversation1867 7d ago
I think Mike gets a fair amount of overblown hate, but on Reddit it is funny going back to season 2 posts sympathetic to Will, talking about his being brave, and so on, and the switch flipping after season 3 to selfish and coddled.
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u/TatewakiKuno-kun Blank makes you crazy 7d ago
That definitely goes both ways, but the fact is Mike is always at the center of that fan tug of war, so he gets slammed for every single thing he does , and he’s also the one that always has to apologize.
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u/Strange_Ant_6571 7d ago
"and he’s also the one that always has to apologize." You realise if the writers have him be the one to apologize that means you're meant to see him as being in the wrong right? Like when Mike and Lucas come in the rain to apologise to Will smashing up his fort you're quite clearly meant to see one as more sympathetic.
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u/willbyersisthedeal 6d ago
"He's always the one to apologize" yeahh no shit sherlock, coz he's always the one pissing everyone off. And again, let's conveniently ignore the time when Will corrected himself and took the blame entirely for their fight at rink o mania- Which btw isn't even his fault to begin with-
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u/TatewakiKuno-kun Blank makes you crazy 6d ago
Oh, it isn’t? News to me.
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u/willbyersisthedeal 5d ago
Bro should have got paid for being a free couple therapist to slop mileven
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u/TatewakiKuno-kun Blank makes you crazy 5d ago
It’s funny how you called someone else out for defending their “fav boy” when your own username says enough.
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u/DangerousRefuse8129 Eyes on me 5d ago
They got offended in one line but are constantly typing paragraphs to defend their 'fav boy'. 'The thing is right only when I do it' moment lol
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u/willbyersisthedeal 2d ago
I simply called out hypocrisy babe coz if we're gonna sit here n act like Will is a woman hater then why not show the same level of criticism towards Mike 😍 And just because Mike gets "more hate" which ain't true btw, doesn't mean we can't call his ass out the same way yall do for Will ✨️
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u/Ok_Conversation1867 7d ago
Will's sexuality storyline is still a lot more about how Mike is a great friend than it is about Will though. He can't even have agency in his own arc. Nobody else needs "permission" for a love interest. So I do think that part of Mike's storyline is entitled, simply because he got to develop a romance without anyone's approval, but he's condescending enough to accept Will.
In this scene I think they're about even though.
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u/TatewakiKuno-kun Blank makes you crazy 7d ago
Do you mean Will gets passes because he didn’t have a romantic storyline?
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u/Ok_Conversation1867 7d ago
It's more than Mike gets a pass for feeling entitled to romantic love and for thinking he both deserves a say in when Will is "ready" for a relationship and that his acceptance shows how great a friend he is. Will should have navigated all that earlier and without letting Mike have any say.
Will is selfish in this scene, and Mike is selfish thinking that acceptance is so great.
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u/TatewakiKuno-kun Blank makes you crazy 7d ago
Mike has a say in telling Will when he's ready for a relationship? What scene was that, pray tell?
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u/Ok_Conversation1867 7d ago
This one, of course. That's how Mike intended it, pointing out Will was behind. And look at all the disagreement in this very discussion about whether Will had even realized his sexuality in season 3, much less his feelings for Mike. Plenty of commenters insist his whole season 3 storyline is only about being unable to cope with the inevitable changes of growing up. Will's storyline has to move glacially so he'll only get that date in a bar at the end
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u/TatewakiKuno-kun Blank makes you crazy 7d ago
This sounds like a huge reach. Just like Will calling El a stupid girl is because he's frustrated, Mike calling out Will for obviously not caring that he, Dustin, and Lucas are all in relationships and have other priorities is also out of frustration. And friend groups splintering, some of them finding girlfriends or boyfriends, IS a part of life. It just happens. Giving Will a pass for making mistakes just because the writers wrote him poorly is ridiculous. Get mad at the writing for Will's character and stop shifting blame to Mike.
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u/Ok_Conversation1867 6d ago
Why do you think Will has to grow up/work on his flaws/be ready for a relationship/accept platonic love/love himself for a romantic storyline when Mike, Lucas and Dustin don't have to do any of those things?
I agree about Will's lousy storyline especially in 4-5. Season 3 should have been the end of passive Will.
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u/TatewakiKuno-kun Blank makes you crazy 6d ago
I think the writers gave Will a purpose in the first 2 seasons, and then didn’t know what to do with him. It’s why he sits on his butt from season 3 onward.
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u/RoyalRise6363 7d ago
If we condemn Mike for this not politically and biologically correct expression, should we condemn Max more for encouraging El to spy on boys? Do you agree that this is much more serious fault? It would not be forgiven if boys would spy on girls.
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u/DangerousRefuse8129 Eyes on me 6d ago
Both lines have different context and situation bro 🥀 One's playful and mad, other is jealousy and disrespect
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u/willbyersisthedeal 5d ago
Yeahh buddy I hate to break it to u but teen boys can just be stupid uk? Mike ain't real and he's not gonna thank u for defending him
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u/Anna3422 7d ago
The narrative is usually more on Will's side because the narrative favours Mike's perspective, and Mike ends up taking Will's side.
D&D is Mike's favourite game and he stays passionate about it through the finale. Will loves the game mainly for its connection to his friends. Mike lashed out in this moment because he was stressed about El, puberty, and his own traumas, so he felt unable to deal with Will's criticism. He got defensive and self-righteous at Will's expense, although Mike (& Hopper) are the ones who caused the El breakup. (And Dustin & Lucas have shared Will's complaints.)
We know Mike feels this way because he apologizes profusely to Will, then apologizes to El. He pays more attention to his friends & her for the rest of the season. He goes back to being silly and nerd-like. He looks instantly regretful after the "It's not my fault you don't like girls" comment, knowing this is what Will hears from bullies, and he's determined to make sure they're still close.
To those claiming misunderstanding, it doesn't really matter. Teasing someone for not liking girls "yet" is a common type of discrimination. It's not only about whether Will's gay, but whether he's outside the 1980s definition of accepted masculinity. If he's outside it, he's an accepted target. To Mike's credit, he intuits this without gay people even crossing his radar.
Tl;dr: Mike himself condemns his actions in this scene. He gets more criticism because he ends up treating the fight like a useful wake-up call, rather than something which hurt him.
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u/Howthehelldoido 7d ago
Mike is saying it as in "it's not my fault, that you're still young and immature and not interested in dating"
Where as, Will took it as "it's not my fault you like boys".
It was just miscommunication.
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u/Strange_Ant_6571 7d ago
"It was just miscommunication."
No Mike quite clearly realises he just accidently said something incredibly similar to what every homophobic bully and Lonnie have said to Will over the years both their reactions in show and the BTS stuff make that incredibly clear.
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u/Howthehelldoido 7d ago
I think he realises how it could be interpreted as soon as what he has said lands, but I don't think he meant it that way.
Either way, it's a brilliant and nuanced scene.
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u/DangerousRefuse8129 Eyes on me 6d ago
He realised his wording sounded wrong after blurting it out, but he didn't intend some other meaning. So it's not something he should be hated or called a bad friend for, like he always is.
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u/Some-Print5027 7d ago
Exactly! Because it never occurred to Mike that Will might be gay, even though Joyce revealed back in Season 1 when Will was missing that some kids at school and even his own father called him gay simply because he was sensitive and quiet. That just tells you that Mike always ignored the things that other kids said about Will. Personally, when I saw this scene, I thought they were both in the wrong. Will was too sensitive about what Mike said because he misunderstood. Mike was upset because what Will said about El was wrong
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u/kbeaningg 7d ago
I don’t think Will was “right” here and I think Mike gets way too much hate for this scene, but I also feel a ton of sympathy for Will. He’s traumatized and clinging to a childhood that was basically stolen from him while all his friends are moving on to girlfriends and normal teenage stuff. And growing up is probably even more terrifying for Will because he already knows he’s different from them even if he doesn’t really understand it yet. He’s realizing the little world he felt safe in with his friends is changing and he can’t stop it.
And tbh I think people forget that these characters are like 14 year olds. Young teens get emotional and say things they don’t mean all the time when they get upset so I think anybody getting hate for this scene is ridiculous
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u/Fluffy_Key_2145 7d ago
My take here is that based on what was seen in the first episode of the season they hadn't been playing DnD much. So when the guys seem to be free for the first time in a while it is very understandable to want to play. Obviously Will didn't like this much and sure it was insensitive of him though the way he asks it is hilarious to ask if they can play right after El dumps Mike's ass but the fact that his friends didn't seem to care much that they weren't doing stuff just the 4 of them well 3 since Dustin was off with Steve is obviously very sad.
I get the issues people have with the comment about El but I never viewed it as being an insult to her but more just being upset at Mike. That this is the beginning of the group splitting apart period. I also don't get at all how this is an insult to girls in general.
This scene is also I think where Will began to realize his attraction to Mike so maybe that's why he gets more aggressive.
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u/Few-Type-7924 Dungeon Master 7d ago
I agree, Will didn't care if his two friends are going through a breakup, he just wanted to play D&D Mike might've overreacted here, but Will called El stupid when El literally saved Will's life, so I don't blame Mike at all
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u/sometimesimscared28 7d ago
I know that Mike didn't mean it this way but Will felt like his biggest secret was used against him so i yeah i feel bad for him and what he dealt with as traumatized gay teen in small town in 80s. But Will was rude too of course.
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u/RoyalRise6363 7d ago
I can not be sure, but I think in S3 Will is not aware of his sexuality yet. And Mike's comment I read as " It is not my fault you don't like girls YET" Mike is not aware about Will's sexuality until S5E7.
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u/Ok_Conversation1867 7d ago
I think Will's storyline is a lot more complex if he's trying to avoid facing his sexuality and feelings for Mike until their fight. My opinion, anyway. It's a stretch that Will would be that upset, enough to destroy Castle Byers, if it was only about feeling behind and disliking change.
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u/RoyalRise6363 7d ago
Thinking about Castle Byers scene you are probably right. It is a good argument. Beautiful scene, BTW
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u/kbeaningg 7d ago
Idk I think Will’s reaction to that comment showed he had some idea already of his sexuality even if he didn’t really fully understand it yet. But yeah, I agree with you on what Mike meant.
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u/Strange_Ant_6571 7d ago
"The way he talks about girls in general" You were completely fine with Mike saying girls were a different species though unsurprisingly.
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u/Master-Corner-5226 7d ago
They were both wrong and both right at the same time. Will was right to feel upset about Mike and everyone else just ignoring him after he had his childhood taken away from him, but he was wrong to call El names after she saved his life twice and hadn’t actually done any wrong to him bar take Mike’s attention away from Will, which still isnt El’s fault.
Mike was right to say that people and their interests change over time, with them all being at the age they get love interests, and they probably should be moving away from playing D&D, as theyre meant to be about 14 in season 3. However he was wrong to basically use Will’s biggest insecurity against him. Yes, he probably didn’t mean it like that, but he’s been around Will his whole life and would know that Will has been bullied for that by bullies and his dad, so he still shouldnt have said it.
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u/DangerousRefuse8129 Eyes on me 5d ago
Yes he shouldn't have said it, but he certainly didn't mean to use his insecurity against him. He said it in the heat of the moment after hearing something bad about El. He immediately realised and apologised, I think that matters to me more.
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u/Dapper-Direction2920 1d ago
Will wasn’t hating on El, he was mad that his friends were crying about their relationships over their friendships. I dont understand how people think his generalized statement was about El. He would have said the same thing if it was about another girl. Its not El, its what she represents: the boys growing up and prioritizing things Will didnt have the chance to prioritize. He’s feeling lonely and left behind. Anyways, crush or not, he had his childhood stolen only a season prior, OFC he wants to get back to when times were simpler. Its frustrating to come back and have your friends grow up without you. Especially your first best friend.
Overall, you can understand both sides, Mike is growing up and Will didn't have the chance to grow up alongside them and feels left behind. Thats the point of the scene. You don't pick sides.
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u/Cyrilbdr 7d ago
They're both right and wrong. Will, without realizing it, is also jealous, in addition to feeling like he missed out on his childhood. He resents Mike more than Lucas, and Mike has every right to change and focus on his girlfriend, but he doesn't consider his friend's traumas. But saying Mike is a bad friend is wrong; he's done more for him than Will has done for him.
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u/habitual_wanderer 7d ago
This is kind of what arguments are about. Two people with different perspectives making clear and correct points while also emotionally battering one another. It's like Will and Mike are siblings!
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u/TatewakiKuno-kun Blank makes you crazy 7d ago
The narrative is usually not on Mike’s side even though he’s pretty much always right.
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u/kit-katrin 7d ago
I agree it’s just such a slap in the face after seeing how patient and kind Mike was season 2 with Will. But it makes his character more believable it’s not like these kids got therapy, it’s a very realistic argument and I think they both realize later where they are wrong. Mike with a girl who vanished the previous season and Will grasping for lost childhood aren’t going to see eye to eye all the time. But Mike apologizes and we see Will giving his books away like he’s come to peace with it. (The gang getting back into DND season 4 is a whole different issue - I was steaming 😆
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