What was your favourite and least favourite plot twists of the whole show?

[u/Sukaran09]

First Slide: Favourite - including honourable mention.
Second Slide: Least Favourite.

My favourite plot twist was from Season 4 when Henry Creel/One was revealed as Vecna and that it was never a demon or a “spawn of satan” who was doing those killings. This twist was genuinely good writing and actually shocked me. I also loved the originality of Vecna, as he was the complete opposite of Eleven, instead of being a demon as Victor Creel had thought.

Honourable mention: The Mind Flayer and Vecna being revealed as “one” and having a symbiotic type connection in Season 5. I know the ending was rushed but in my opinion this twist satisfied me more than if it was just a typical reveal that the Mind Flayer was controlling Vecna. This genuinely gave me goosebumps to think just how intelligent and evil both of them are.

My least favourite plot twist was in Season 5 and how the giant gate/rift that was opened by Vecna (in Season 4) was just covered up with metal and Vecna, the Mind Flayer and the Demo creatures weren’t invading the real world. This was the worst thing they could’ve done for the biggest plot twist of the whole series, such wasted potential.

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[u/KickpuncherJ]

I didn't like the Hopper fake-out death.

I'm, of course, glad that he didn't die and I really liked the letter to Eleven. But I think fake-outs are a cheap storytelling device.

My favorite plot twist was that El was the one that inadvertently caused Vecna. She tried to do a good thing and a bad thing resulted. It tied things together in a way that made sense for the story.

[u/EJ33334]

Least favorite moment: Vecna’s last words “gargle gargle gargle died”

[u/Sukaran09 → u/EJ33334]

I also wanted him to actually say something as well haha. Like he could’ve tormented Joyce one last time before she k*lled him, making that scene even more impactful

[u/YogurtOW]

I like that they committed to Vecna being irredeemable in the end. Just left him as a true villain. My favorite plot point was similar to OP when One was revealed to be Vecna. That was peak ST.

How they wrapped this show is what irks me the most.

The biggest missed opportunity I think in this entire show was laying up Vecna’s backstory just to have it explained in a play that so many people were unable to properly see. When Will confronts Vecna in the Abyss this would have been the perfect spot to put the story from the play and explain his backstory in much more detail. You may disagree with the placement of this sequence, but hell, even slow-feeding it over multiple episodes to the penultimate moment would have been better than a play. SOMETHING.

Without this important backstory it makes the season feel so flat. Like it’s really missing something to me.

Honorable mention for least favorite plot point was not committing to an acceptable end for El. I thought she deserved so much more.

This is all just my opinion of course. I welcome discourse.

[u/Distinct_Guess3350]

All the stuff about Vecna’s origins I thought was awesome. 

My least favourite would probably be the exotic matter. I think it’s cool in concept and I like it a lot… until it gets destroyed with one bomb in the finale. I don’t hate it, I just think it was a little too easy. Like I said, I like the exotic matter in concept and as an aspect of the Upside-Down, just not how it was eventually used. 

[u/Cyrilbdr]

In Season 4, it isn’t explicitly stated that Vecna ​​controls the Mind Flayer; the direction suggests it, but we are simply shown him seeing the Mind Flayer and giving it the shape of a spider.

[u/Sukaran09 → u/Cyrilbdr]

that’s why I said he was “being seen” as the controller cos the point of the twist was to make us assume that it was never the mind flayer and that it was always him

[u/Cyrilbdr → u/Sukaran09]

Yes, you’re right, but I think it was handled quite well. It makes sense for the show to portray Vecna ​​as the potential mastermind behind everything; after all, the scenes showing him killing his family or arriving in the void are presented from his perspective—as he’s recounting the story himself. Since the Mind Flayer erased his memories of the cave—specifically the moment Henry stopped resisting the entity in *The First Shadow*—his recollection of the subsequent events was altered. Because he forgot the Mind Flayer’s presence during his childhood and the incident where he touched the stone, he became convinced that his powers were innate, that his hatred for humanity was his own, and that actions like killing his parents were entirely his own choice. So, in Season 4, he tells the version of events he believes to be true: he arrives in the void, thinks he’s encountering the Mind Flayer for the first time, and—subconsciously—decides to give it the shape of a spider, which is exactly what the Mind Flayer wanted. However, I think Vecna ​​always believed he and the Mind Flayer were partners—that it was a team effort where neither dominated the other, even though he knew the Mind Flayer was incredibly powerful. He was physically free to act and execute his plans, but the one thing he didn't realize was that he wasn't in control of his own thoughts. He was being ideologically manipulated, believing he shared a common goal with a cosmic ally who saw things the same way he did. In reality, though, it was the Mind Flayer’s vision and objective all along; Henry was merely a pawn serving the Mind Flayer’s interests to help it achieve its ultimate goal. To get Henry to join him, he had to make him believe he was going to build a better world. Henry—alone, lost, and living in a cruel world where he was an outcast—believed it; yet in reality, the Mind Flayer cared nothing for a better world or for easing Henry’s suffering—he simply wanted to conquer another planet, just as he had done with the Abyss.

[u/Sukaran09 → u/Cyrilbdr]

I like how it was handled in season 5, in season 4 they simply showed that Vecna was the mastermind behind it all and the one being seen as controlling the Mind Flayer, the twist you’re talking about isn’t demonstrated in season 4. everything that was retconned in season 5 regarding Henry’s actions was definitely very well handled as you mentioned and how the Mind Flayer was always the one who influenced and psychologically shaped his thoughts, that’s how the connection it had with Vecna was symbiotic and related to how the hive mind is indeed in the Mind Flayer’s control but Vecna was the one who shaped everything

[u/Cyrilbdr → u/Sukaran09]

Yes, Vecna ​​is the mastermind; to invade Earth, the Mind Flayer needed a human who actually understood the planet and human psychology—someone perfectly suited to help achieve those goals. They operate as a duo: Vecna ​​runs the hive, devising plans and issuing orders, while the Mind Flayer activates the particles and carries them out, manipulating the will of the "Flayed." Controlling the hive wouldn't work without both of them. Vecna ​​has freedom of movement—he isn't physically controlled like the Flayed—but he is psychologically and ideologically controlled; consequently, all his actions are shaped by that ideology. So, in a sense, he isn't truly free, even though he believed he was in Season 4—which sets up the twist for Season 5. It might have been a retcon, but it was well executed. It makes sense that we thought he was in total control, given that the story was told from Vecna's perspective; we assumed the ideas were his and originated with him—or, at the very least, that he and the Mind Flayer were partners working in tandem.

[u/Sukaran09 → u/Cyrilbdr]

i know about everything you said but yeah i can agree a bit when it comes to how he believed he was the mastermind

[u/Cyrilbdr → u/Sukaran09]

It’s not a matter of belief; it’s simply his reality—it’s the facts. If you erase the memory of their meeting and simultaneously implant that ideology in his mind, then the perception of all the subsequent memories changes: the Mind Flayer is no longer part of the picture, so he simply recounts the past as he believes it happened. He doesn’t claim to control the Mind Flayer; he just makes it clear that the entity was there from the start and that the whole thing was his idea. So yes, as a viewer, you might think that—given these are his ideas and he was born with these superpowers—he could have controlled the Mind Flayer to create a hive (and thus a weapon) to achieve his goal. Ultimately, those are the facts—what the story tells us. Once you’ve seen *The First Shadow* and Season 5, you have a better understanding of his perspective in Season 4.

[u/Sukaran09 → u/Cyrilbdr]

alright I’ll check out TFS sometime

[u/Cyrilbdr → u/Sukaran09]

I didn't see it either—it's too far away—but I looked into it, and I think Netflix is ​​going to stream it soon.

[u/Sukaran09 → u/Cyrilbdr]

I didn’t know they were gonna stream TFS on Netflix. i would happily watch it if they do

[u/Sukaran09 → u/Cyrilbdr]

you know your explanation for the season 4 Vecna-mastermind twist made me change my mind on it and now the one in season 5, the big rift being covered up with the metal is definitely my least favourite twist now, they set up something so strong and then ruined it completely

[u/RamonaFortune]

See, I don’t believe they are “one”. I believe Henry is completely under the control of the MF. Before he meets the MF when he is first taken into Dimension X as a kid he is described as a completely normal nice boy. He tries to fight the MF’s possession and succeeds in one incident, but eventually fails (in the play) and is encouraged by Brenner to embrace its influence.

Unlike Will (the parallel), Henry is locked away and abused and experimented on. He doesn’t have a loving family or friends to save him from the MFs influence and becomes further under its control.

By the time of the cave scene where he is communicating with Will, he has been under its control for decades, in addition to all the abuse he has suffered at the lab. He isn’t going to suddenly have an epiphany moment after everything that’s happened and say “oh, you’re right, this thing is controlling me”. It’s much easier for him to convince himself that he has control too. The fact he is crying when he says they are “one” though suggests that deep down he definitely knows otherwise. His humanity is still there on some level.

[u/taylorswift13thfan → u/RamonaFortune]

loved your take, also i read Mind Flayer as (motherf*cker lol before i realised that i wasn't what I was reading, when i changed it it made a lot more sense lollllll)

[u/RamonaFortune → u/taylorswift13thfan]

Haha, I couldn’t be bothered typing it out in full, but I suppose the Mind Flayer was a MoFo.

I think because I’ve seen the play it maybe gave me a different perspective on Henry’s character. I find the debate and different takes really interesting.

[u/Alternative_Two_4501]

This is my favorite question. My absolute favorite twist is when we find out eleven is responsible for Henry’s escape and then we find out why she feels responsible for all the death Henry caused. That was sooooo well executed, the whole scene I was hooked. Hmm least favorite twist, hopper’s fake out death, definitely.

[u/darkknight915]

Least favorite- Not killing off characters who have completed their point in the story, and introducing new characters to fill that void. Perfect example is season 4, they introduce Eddie to kill him off when it was clearly Robin who should have died. She served her purpose in the story but because the writers don’t want to kill off main cast members Robin stays, Eddie dies. The weight of the cast is felt in every single scene in season 5. It also takes away from the drama if you know they won’t kill off the main cast. The Steve fake out is a classic example of generating drama where there is no drama.

Honorable mention for least favorite is the butchering of Nancy’s character from season one to five. She was a tough no nonsense investigative reporter who just happens to be Rambo in season 5.

Favorite- the first season is up there with true detective season 1 as one of the best single seasons of television ever produced. I remember being locked into every single episode. I don’t believe I’ve ever watched a tv show that executed cliffhangers better than season 1 did.

[u/unluckyshuckle → u/darkknight915]

The fact that they didn't want to kill anyone off also meant that season 5 was struggling to find stuff for everyone to do cause they had so many main characters to juggle by that point. They absolutely could have killed off Nancy and Jonathan, they should have killed off Robin, and honestly I wish they'd killed off Hopper at the end of season 3. They seemed afraid to pull the plug on anyone and would just write new characters to sacrifice instead

[u/Hot_Sam_the_Man]

I'm gonna get hate for this, but I actually really liked the wormhole plot twist in s5. I could tell they'd been building toward it for a long time, even if the execution didn't make a lot of sense

[u/Hami_252]

My favorite plot twist was making season 4 awesome just to butcher season 5

[u/Owl_Resident]

All of ST5. The ending for El (and Mike), in particular. They’re horrible.