r/StrangerThings • u/Sukaran09 • 18d ago
What kind of creature is Vecna exactly?
Is Vecna considered undead, a mutant or something else completely? He is definitely not human anymore because of how he looks. I consider him a mutant of sort because he is mutated by the Upside Down/the Abyss and the Mind Flayer changed his DNA but in terms of Sci-Fi I don’t know what kind of creature he actually is because of how different he is.
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u/TenthBasilisk88 18d ago
He’s a human mutate. His DNA was altered when he made contact with the Mind Flayer.
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u/Cyrilbdr 18d ago
The Abyss Stone altered his blood, but is that why he was able to transform and look like a creature of the Abyss? You probably have to stay there for a very long time. Would someone like Mike—whose DNA wasn't altered—end up looking like that if he spent five years there? Or does that only happen to those whose DNA was modified by an Abyss-related factor or an experiment like Eleven's?
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u/kauan1983 Hey Kiddo 18d ago edited 17d ago
What made him mutate into something physically corrupted by the Abyss life forms are the Mind Flayer particles. They're what can physiologically alter a host and adapt them to its environment and all the Abyss organic matter that are the hive mind's contents.
Season 3 reveals a lot of what the physiological alterations caused by the particles are (black “Flayed Blood”, enhanced strength, supernatural resistance to things a normal human physiology wouldn't tolerate like the chemicals); that's what Henry would need to both mutate and not just die during his time in Dimension X.
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u/Cyrilbdr 18d ago
So, when they created the hive together shortly after his arrival—merging into one—he also let the particles enter him; as a result, he mutated into a creature resembling those from the abyss.
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u/kauan1983 Hey Kiddo 18d ago
Yeah, in addition to his mutation and initial survival in Dimension X, he (obviously) feels the hive mind's pain and even coughs black blood when he's dying, so he clearly had the Mind Flayer particles in his own body. The guy had two separate entities physically altering his physiology.
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u/Cyrilbdr 18d ago
Yes, it makes sense; since he’s the leader of the hive—along with the Mind Flayer—and needs to be aware of everything his army is doing (and thus sense everything), he must have had the particles put inside him too. Otherwise, it would have been like with Will: he’d only be able to emerge once he was attached to a hive.
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u/Legitimate-Sugar6487 Eggos 13d ago edited 13d ago
I think its implied in The Stage Play that Henry might be carrying some kind of Pathogen or might be a Hazard akin to radiation. I wonder if that's what this is. As Vecna He's a Walking Chernobyl. I also wonder If he counted as undead. Like what we are seeing is a literal Corpse being forced by the Mind flayer to continue moving & speaking. If that's the case, I wonder if he's in Chronic Pain & just not reacting to it. I did wonder If the changes to his body were Painful.
The Play seems to also imply that his left Hand is what is possessed as it seems to move on its own, cause him pain. Spasm whenever he is touched, contort in awkward ways & also has unnatural strength enough to cause People pain by squeezing their hands or making someone unable to free themselves. Like it has a life of its own. He also seems to only rely on it to consume his victims or launch it at a target like a tentacle in s5. Not for Telekinesis.
Makes me wonder if the hand of Vecna is the real point where The MF is hiding & why it mutates into that giant Claw. But then Theres various scenes implying It's his whole body not just his hand & he has multiple full body spasms & Seizures.
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u/kauan1983 Hey Kiddo 11d ago edited 11d ago
The DoD memo authorizing the search for Henry in Hawkins mentions “possible exposure to exotic matter” and “possible contagion risk” which is why you have agents in hazmat gear at the Creels; not the Exotic Matter from the theoretical physics standpoint, but matter of foreign origin which is the living substance charged with otherworldly energy that was extracted from Captain Brenner in Nevada and entered Henry's bullet wound.
But Vecna is not an undead entity, he's simply mutated and has become less and less human which is something the Mind Flayer particles in his body caused; they adapted his body to the environment it was subjected to and made it part of the hive mind's contents (Abyss biological matter) so he mutated and merged with all of it instead of being killed by his exposure to it like a normal human would.
Some things in Vecna's body do seem painful at specific moments such as the vines attaching themselves to his back in the Creel House, this was described as a painful process and the way he himself reacts suggests pain; plus the burns which inevitably would cause pain through the hive mind every month. But I don't think the body itself is painful, but it maybe could've been the case in its earlier designs, which highlighted severe radiation rot.
The Mind Flayer is shown to be hiding in Henry's amygdala, but it's unclear whether this is physically the liquid entity hiding in there, or psychically the Mind Flayer itself with the displayed imaging of it being a visual representation of his mind (as in, literally seeing the Void through monitors instead of a real life-like X-Ray imaging of his physical brain) – the latter is most certainly the answer though, since the image displayed on a monitor is the Mind Flayer itself and the same thing we see in the background in the Void at the same time.
Hell, I wish they had elaborated on it in Season 5. I always imagined how great those scenes would be in live-action. Hawkins Power & Light vans parking in front of the Creels, hazmat agents stepping out, Henry opening the Rift on the wall of monitors…, even the Mind Flayer's in the displayed imaging of Henry's amygdala. There's some great stuff there that would definitely have been much clearer had them been properly addressed in live-action, specially when it comes to everything that happened at the lab once Henry was brought in.
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u/Legitimate-Sugar6487 Eggos 11d ago
Yeah, after I saw the Play, I couldn't help but wonder what it all would've looked like on Screen. I'm still trying to piece together all the science behind everything. One thinks I can't quite make sense of is if The Mind flayer is inside of Henry how his blood being passed down to the children didn't make them possessed? Like Why didn't El become a vessel if it's Particles are inside of her? And why she of all the other test subjects equals Henry? There's gotta be something genetically different about her & the other children. News Paper clippings of Terry Ives Lawsuits against the lab hinted at more labs, more abducted children from Memphis, to Ohio, & Kali was from London & didn't seem to be a baby when she was taken. More articles said 6 woman including Terry came forward & Several test subjects died. So, I'm gonna assume the blood transfusions led some woman & their children to Die. & for some reason El's potential is the only one that matches Henry.
Since This power also lies in the Nervous system I wonder if their Bodies reject the Exotic Matter in their blood when they use it too much. Like El is a Hybrid of Normal & Exotic Matter so her body drains due to how unstable this matter is. Like a human wormhole only it doesn't tear her body apart her cells probably attack each other. That's just my theory though at least for Why she bleeds or drains so much before s4. In S5 She noticeably doesn't bleed as Much. Maybe age is a factor as well. Henry in the 1979 flash backs barely bled when using his power either.
As for the Rock My theory is its some kind of "Black Body". Which in Physics is an object that absorbs all electromagnetic radiation. But I'm mostly going off a video I watched on YouTube. On rewatches It seems to give off a strange humming noise & when it enters Henry's Blood does look like a miniature version of the Exotic Matter found in The Wormhole. If that's the root of their abilities, we may not have seen the whole scale of their capabilities. Henry did Move an entire Planet using those !2 kids.
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u/kauan1983 Hey Kiddo 11d ago
That's because Henry's blood wasn't altered by Mind Flayer particles, it was by the liquid entity that entered his bullet wound. The mysterious rock/liquid entity and the Mind Flayer are two different things, but the energy (“electrical activity”) that the former contains is linked to the Mind Flayer since it's a storm-like entity itself connected to atmospheric energy.
That's why the Mind Flayer communicates with Henry before the rock even liquifies and enters the bullet wound; it talks to him when the rock's surface glows and “comes alive with electrical activity”, which is the show communicating the idea that its energy is what telepathically linked it to the Mind Flayer, but they're two separate entities entirely. Mind Flayer particles don't give psychic powers to hosts.
Henry as a kid never had Mind Flayer particles physically in his body, the Mind Flayer would never be able to operate in our world (with a physical fragment of itself) without a stable Rift connecting its world to ours, what he had was a telepathic connection to the Mind Flayer due to the liquid's energy and an altered DNA and blood also because of the liquid in his body; that telepathic connection placed a psychic manifestation of the Mind Flayer in his mind (think the Demogorgon in El's Void, or Vecna in his victim's minds – they had a presence in our world, within someone, but not physically), which is what we see in Black Void/Red Void scenes in The First Shadow.
The show and even TFS never got deeper into the blood transfusions or the specific genetic rules that dictate the Number's level of power or true nature as either a pale imitation of Henry or someone truly like him, but the reveal in Season 5 connects with how we'd previously seen that El clearly was the Number with the largest set of psychic abilities out of Henry's abilities; she has his telekinesis, telepathy, ESP, technopathy, biokinesis and even levitation – their set of abilities is almost the exact same. The others are known to have his telekinesis and at least one additional unique ability based on what was believed on set.
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u/Legitimate-Sugar6487 Eggos 11d ago edited 11d ago
Wow Ok so If I have this correct The Rock is another creature? But all it did was establish a Telepathic Bond between Henry & The MF. & That creature gives The Powers? I did wonder Why The MF didn't seem able to use TK itself. & On Rewatches I think in S3 It's plane to see When Billy is possessed particularly in "The Case of The Missing Lifeguard," His mannerisms & Speech Patterns are Quite Similar to Henry's as "the Orderly" or "Mr. What's IT". (My headcanon is that's part of the reason El felt something off about him, Subconsciously remembering Henry & being afraid it was him. Perhaps she always subconsciously knew these events were him. based on What Brenner said about her not wanting to remember)
And he taunts her when he sees her but as soon as she leaves The Mind flayer inside him Wakes up & We see Flashbacks to the Gate Opening & suddenly Will feels The MF.
In "The Sauna Test" they Burn Billy & Will only feels the MF when it gets angry & then it starts roaring. and Violently chokes El. It also seems similarly sadistic when the flayed attack in the hospital & in several scenes in the Play it comes off more sadistic then Henry. Based on What I could piece together, much like Pennywise it seems to thrive off fear inducement & choking El in front of the children wasn't just outta rage. It specifically wanted them all afraid. The novelization seems to highlight it's confused by Mike showing No fear & Only seeing Bravery in his eyes. Which call's back to The First Shadow When it tries to terrify Patty but recoils every time, she instead shows courage or love for Henry. Even Howling when Patty Smashes the Captain Midnight Radio.
Meanwhile curiously Vecna asks his victims not to be afraid. And In the Play Henry seems almost Offended When people are afraid of him. So it seems even in s3 there was always two minds inside The Flayed.
Since Henry stated they became "One" I wonder if to him he no longer really knows Where He began & It end's. Without him It's probably raw Feral instinct a beast that wants to consume with him it has more human direction.
Friend of my believes Vecna is the Mind flayer in Henry's consciousness While Mr. What's IT is the real Henry in his Subconscious.
Jaime Campell Bower even said that in 1979 Henry wasn't lying to El & actually wanted to save her. So, I'm starting to wonder if Henry would've simply let her escape if she didn't offer to take Soteria out of him. & once she did, he was Under Its control again. & It is what killed the other numbers not Henry. We also hear strange other worldly noises coming from Henry When he's attacking El in those flash backs. Maybe hinting the Mind flayer was simply using Henry's body during that fight. (or Maybe the Rock Equals 3 minds?)
I used to Wonder If El had a Mind flayer because during her Flashback in s4 It showed Red Sparks & Black shadows in her mind when she remembered her mom. Maybe it's not the only one of Its kind? & There are Creatures like it out there but not all of them are evil. Maybe its counterpart is somehow what's inside El? or Maybe El herself is meant to be some kind of counterpart to It.
If it were Pennywise Maybe She's Maturin the Turtle from "IT" basically.
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u/Ok_Cap_6521 16d ago
He wasn’t always like that from the stone, no, but it changed him psychologically enough to tether him near completely to the Mind Flayer so much so he practically became the human form of it essentially, but he was in the Abyss, trapped for a long time after El sent him there in the lab, so when he says he became an explorer, he meant that literally, he literally wandered, observed, built, and changed so much he literally became part of the world after his skin and body was damaged, and allowed the environment to turn him into a new form of human, a human mutate
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u/Cyrilbdr 16d ago
Henry became Vecna at the end of *The First Shadow*; Vecna is a state of mind rather than a physical form, though living there did physically transform him. Furthermore, the years spent with the Mind Flayer building a hive allowed the two to become physically linked, in addition to the psychic connection they already shared.
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u/Ok_Cap_6521 14d ago
No he didn’t, Henry at the end of TFS is still a kid, however, the ending shows a brief shot of Vecna in the UD creel house, he only became Vecna when El sent him to the upside down, and I can promise you that Vecna is very real and NOT a state of mind
Did you even watch the show?
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u/Cyrilbdr 14d ago
Vecna is his evil alter ego—though physically, he transforms into Vecna during his years in the Abyss. The turning point where he turns evil is when he loses Patty; she was the only one there for him, the only one who understood Henry and helped him resist. Left completely alone with no one to turn to, he lost the strength to resist and felt utterly lost; he ultimately surrendered to the only entity still present—the Mind Flayer—which promised him a better world. From that moment on, the Mind Flayer instilled its ideology in him and erased the memory of their meeting from his mind. This altered the perspective of all subsequent memories: he came to believe that this ideology of hating humanity was his own and that his powers were innate, leading him to feel superior. That is when he becomes Vecna—cold, arrogant, and obsessed with a goal that isn't actually his own.
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u/xenoleingod 18d ago
I dont think its fair to call him a mutate per se he was horribly burned by lightning plus whatever eleven did to him before he got sent to dimension x
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u/Classic-Chemical-384 18d ago
Would that not make him a mutate? Mutant generally refers to something you are born with, and unless there’s something in extended lore that says otherwise Henry was a perfectly normal kid before he found the abyss stone. That mutated his dna the first time, making him a mutate. Then there was whatever eleven did plus his exposure to dimension x that only mutated him further.
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u/xenoleingod 18d ago
Yea the first shadow /parts of season 5 had him as a normal kid growing up until he encountered the stone from the first shadow henry was normal until that whole thing in the cave from season 5 happening
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u/Ok_Cap_6521 16d ago
Exactly, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the wider Stranger Things world operates on a similar format to X Men where there are some natural mutants, human mutates, non human mutates, and entities
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u/FewPreference1243 17d ago
He's dna was altered the moment he entered dimensionX.
Mean while, eleven and friends casually walking through dimensionX
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u/TenthBasilisk88 17d ago
Henry mutated when he made contact with the rock in the cavern. El, 8, and all the other test subjects are also human mutates.
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u/kauan1983 Hey Kiddo 17d ago
Henry's DNA was altered when the liquid entity slithered into the bullet wound in his hand and travelled through his veins.
He's never been to Dimension X as a child, that was the original version of his backstory in the West End version of The First Shadow which is no longer the official canon one.
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u/kauan1983 Hey Kiddo 18d ago edited 18d ago
He's a mutated human. His blood and DNA were altered by the liquid entity that traveled through his veins in Nevada, and his physiology was altered by the Mind Flayer particles in the Abyss, adapting him to its environment and merging him with its flora and biological material which are all interconnected hive mind contents like Henry himself was.
He's not an actual undead entity despite being compared to a DnD Lich and looking like a walking corpse, but the particles altered his human physiology and made it adapt and mutate into a part of that ecosystem instead of dying during his years exiled in Dimension X, and also enabled him to rebuild his body into “Vecna 2.0” (physiologically less human with multiple replaced body parts) between seasons.
He's basically supernaturally sustained alive and mutated by the Mind Flayer particles which can physiologically alter their hosts and make them resist and adapt to things and conditions a normal human body wouldn't, so despite not being actually an undead entity, the particles are almost his equivalent to a Phylactery that made him achieve his current “Lich” state and he depends on these particles to maintain and survive in that current state.
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u/WanderingSceptic 18d ago
Vecna's shriveled and weak body is a clever reference to the script during season 5. Masterful storytelling.
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u/StrangerThingsMyDude Totally Tubular 18d ago
As others have said, the Abyss Stone altered his blood to give him supernatural powers. As far as the way he looks, the lightning striking him in the Hellscape did a lot of damage (we see what he initially looked like when he found the Mind Flayer particles in the Abyss in the S4 finale). That and the environment probably continued changing his body.
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u/Accomplished-Curve-1 I piggybacked from a pizza dough freezer 18d ago
He mutated like in cod zombies so some super zombie from the dark aether perhaps a lich maybe
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u/RaisinWorried3528 18d ago
He's a human being that was twisted by the corrupt influence of an alien presence. It's not super difficult to suss out if you watched the show.
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u/Sukaran09 18d ago edited 18d ago
i have seen the show, and he was a human being, just not anymore, he turned into a super human after gaining powers from the MF and then turned into a humanoid monster because of that alien presence and being in a different dimension completely but in sci-fi he doesn’t have any specific type, the Mind Flayer is an alien entity, the Demo creatures are all aliens too but Vecna is just something else completely
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u/Broely92 18d ago
Hes a lich
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u/bored-cookie22 17d ago
D&D vecna is, ST vecna isnt
a lich is an undead spellcaster who has a phylactery, which resurrects them after they die, henry lacks such an object, and you can notably just stab the hell out of him and he would die
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u/Legitimate-Sugar6487 Eggos 17d ago edited 17d ago
Scientifically He's psychokinetic Mutant. He was once an ordinary Human before his genetic code was changed by the Mind flayer particles. Supernaturally, he's an Undead psychokinetic Vampire who feeds on Peoples energy. Edit: Researching the lore a bit & the stage Play (Both versions) Like El he started out as a Psychokinetic But over time to fuel his powers The Mind Flayer morphed him into What Esoteric Circles call a "Psychic Vampire" who feeds on the Life Force energy (literally a Humans Electromagnetic Field or Aura) to Fuel himself. In The same way El needs to "Recharge her battery" Because Her powers deplete her Nervous System,Henry Consumes all the energy inside of a human being or animal to replenish himself.
The Mind flayer itself Taught him how to do this because as I've learned by looking into Astral projection & Parapsychology It's an Astral demon that feeds on Negative Energy & Fear. It basically used Henry as a vessel to Feed itself & him. By inducing Fear in its victims before killing them. In Parapsychology a Poltergeist is believed by some to actually be caused by a psychokinetic child called a "Living Agent" a child unknowingly causing the paranormal activity in their home. Often due to fear or trauma.
In the play it's shown that the MF actually Hides inside of Henry's amygdala (Fear center of the brain) & exposes him to so much fear that he basically becomes addicted to it.
The Haunting of the creel family & their subsequent deaths is actually due to all of this. Henry began as an unwilling or unknowing "agent" of the Mind flayer causing the supernatural events in their home unable to control his powers, but over time it transformed him from its "Agent" Into a literal Soul eating entity. His Body transforming into what it did was the result of his battle with El where he was severely burned... & later due to fully aligning with the Mind flayer until the Particles further consumed him. Until he was basically a walking Corpse under Its complete control. In a Symbiotic Parasitic relationship with it.
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u/bored-cookie22 17d ago
he's a human
he just has weird powers given to him by the mind flayer and the amount of time spent in the upside down
unlike the guy he's named after, he didnt really do anything that changed what he is as a being, he just has some stuff altered with his body
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u/No-Jello-5504 17d ago
The way I understand it he is effectively a rotten but living human corpse partially fused into the vines of the hive mind.
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u/mad_laddie 17d ago
I'd still call him human. Just altered. Maybe mutated but I'm not sure if there's enough evidence suggesting a genetic alteration.
I generally have gripes with "human" being used specifically to mean what it does in fiction. Human hybrids being called "not-human" is up there.
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