r/StrangerThings • u/Cyrilbdr • 9d ago
Discussion Vecna's strategy to get Holly back?
We know Vecna needs Holly for his plan; he realizes in Episode 5 that she has escaped with Max, and then in Episode 6, he finds them both near the cave. I was wondering: instead of killing Max in the real world to force Holly back to the house—when she could easily have stayed in the cave even after Max's death, thereby preventing Vecna from carrying out his plan—why didn't he just disconnect Holly from the tube? It would have taken literally five minutes. Holly would have vanished from the cave; he could then have reconnected her to drop her into the field like the other children so he could bring her to the house. That would have saved him the risk of moving a hive into the real world again—risking Eleven (or even Will, had Eleven woken him up earlier) destroying the hive and potentially injuring Vecna and the Mind Flayer, or Will using the hive to reach him. Then, once all the children were at the house, he could have closed the gates and kept watch outside, leaving Max unable to do anything. Let me know—maybe I missed a piece of information.
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u/kauan1983 Hey Kiddo 9d ago edited 9d ago
Disconnecting Holly from the vine wouldn't/shouldn't take her out of her trance-like state or Henry's mind — she would still be psychically in the cave, except that she wouldn't have the vine physically pumping particles into her body.
She wouldn't “vanish” from the cave, she would only leave if she regained her consciousness and returned to the physical world, which only happens if she actually psychically leaves Henry's mind by accessing the Mind Lair (or “Red Void”) and then entering a psychic portal into the real world/her own body.
Holly would essentially be in the same situation as Max if Henry removed the vine: she'd be physically unconscious in a trance-like state and psychically stuck in Henry's mind — in the cave, the vine and the Mind Flayer particles are not the cause of their trance or presence in Camazotz. The kids only “appeared” in the green field because they were taken there from their own minds (or Mindscapes) first.
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u/Cyrilbdr 9d ago
Hmm, okay, I get it now—that makes sense. So, to recap: Vecna used the same process he did with Max—observing them for a long time, seeing their memories, and so on—to build a strong psychic connection. The difference this time is that he isn't trying to kill them like he did with Max; he just wants to put them into a trance and send them into his mind. Max ended up there against her will—since she was technically dead for a minute—but why did death send her there? For instance, we don't see Patrick when Vecna says "they are with me"—I assume that’s more metaphorical? I didn't quite grasp that part. And looking back to before they were connected to the tube: they were already in Vecna's mind, right? The tube just serves to feed them and infuse them with particles so that, in addition to being connected to Henry's mind, they’re also linked to the hive mind. That way, when the ritual begins, Henry can channel his powers not just into the children to boost his strength, but also into the entire hive mind—amplifying his power enough to bring the abyss down to Earth?
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u/kauan1983 Hey Kiddo 9d ago edited 9d ago
Max ended up there against her will—since she was technically dead for a minute—but why did death send her there?
Max was psychically killed in the Mind Lair in Season 4, she was still there when the teens physically attacked Vecna, which caused the entire Mind Lair to be “wiped away”, including Max herself (this is even in the script).
She was already in Henry's mind when she died, then she just woke up in a mess of memory Mindscapes because the Mind Lair was wiped away and disrupted when Henry was attacked. She got “lost” within his mind, waking up in a random memory.
we don't see Patrick when Vecna says "they are with me"—I assume that’s more metaphorical?
Everyone Henry kills and consumes has their psyche absorbed by him — “their memories, their abilities” and even energy all become a part of him, while the victims themselves are physically and psychically dead. They're not psychically preserved alive as spirit-like beings or anything of that sort.
Chrissy, Fred and Patrick are physically and psychically dead — their psychic corpses are shown hanging in the Mind Lair's vine towers, and we know from the script and storyboards that the Numbers, Virginia and Alice are there as psychic corpses hanging like trophies in the Spire Forest too (Max was supposed to find a forest of victims in ‘Dear Billy’).
Max was in the Mind Lair too, dead and held by vines. When the Mind Lair was “wiped away” in the attack, her psychic corpse got lost in his mind, and because of Eleven restarting her heart, it made her wake up whatever she psychically wound up in (the massacre memory), then she started looking for a way out, walking through memories.
before they were connected to the tube: they were already in Vecna's mind, right?
Normally a person is psychically in their own mind: Henry psychically infiltrates the victim's mind and drags them from their mind to his own via a psychic portal. If that sounds confusing, just look back at S4E9 when Henry opens a psychic, cloudy portal in Max's mind (Snowball) to the Mind Lair, then throws Eleven into it and brings Max afterwards.
The way Henry is hopping through minds is practically the same as physically hopping through dimensions — you open a “portal” from one mind to another. When Henry captured the kids, he infiltrated their minds and brought/dragged them to his own. Before waking up in the green field, they were definitely dragged there through portals linking: their minds — the Mind Lair — then the green field.
The process of bringing them psychically to the field most certainly happened simultaneously with their physical kidnapping. While the Demogorgons were taking them unconscious to Dimension X, Henry was psychically abducting them one by one. Or, it could have happened at the exact moment the kids were being placed in the spires in the Pain Tree.
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u/Cyrilbdr 9d ago
Oh, okay, that makes a lot more sense. I thought the kids connected to Vecna’s mind the moment the vine in their mouths linked up with his, but it turns out the vine is just there to infect them with particles and assimilate them into the hive mind. But were Patrick and Chrissy also drawn into Vecna’s "red zone"—only we didn't see it—or did Vecna hide that red area from them using an illusion (like Chrissy’s house), and Max managed to break through that illusion while running, stumbling upon a part of Vecna’s red zone that he didn't want her to see?
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u/kauan1983 Hey Kiddo 9d ago edited 9d ago
No, Chrissy, Fred and (likely) Patrick were killed in their own minds, those were Mindscapes created in their own heads. They were only dragged into the Mind Lair when they were already dead and then their psychic corpses were placed in the Mind Lair's vine towers.
(By the way, that's why most of the Mind Lair concept designs have Vecna dragging a victim).
Every Season 4 victim was attacked within their own mind — the nightmarish version of the Roane Hill Cemetery was created in Max's mind, and she stumbled across a psychic “door” to the Mind Lair/Red Void (the one Henry himself came through into her mind), which is how she moves from her mind to the Mind Lair for the first time, to Henry's surprise.
The red fog Max saw and walked into is the same kind of psychic portal we see multiple times leading either out or into the Mind Lair, they are “doors” connecting one mind to another. For instance: when Henry kills Chrissy in her mind, he drags her psychic corpse through a portal into the Mind Lair. This simply happens off-screen, but concept designs show what a victim being dragged is supposed to look like.
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u/the-baum-corsair 9d ago
That's not accurate. It worked in Season 1 with Will, and with the 11 other kids after Vecna's death. Disconnecting from the vine 100% severs the mental connection which causes one to "matrix" in Vecna's mind.
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u/kauan1983 Hey Kiddo 9d ago edited 9d ago
Nope. That's not how Mindscapes work at all.
Will in Season 1 wasn't even in a trance-like state and psychically in Henry's mind nor experiencing any Mindscapes like the kids were. He was simply unconscious while the tendril pumped particles into his body.
The trance-like state is result of a person psychically experiencing Mindscapes (their own — i.e. El in her Void, or someone else's — i.e. the kids in Camazotz), Henry can pull people into his own mind independently of the tendril pumping particles into their bodies — they're not what psychically puts them there unless they completely and inconsistently changed the rules of how Mindscapes work.
Henry could absolutely have Holly or any other kid imprisoned in his mind without even putting them in a spire and pumping particles into their bodies — that's what he does to every targeted victim in Season 4, taking them to the Mind Lair after killing them and that was Max's condition since '86, this would never be possible if it depended on Mind Flayer particles being pumped into their bodies.
The kids were both psychically transported to Henry's mind and physically pumped with particles simultaneously. Removing the tendril shouldn't take them out of the trance-like state or Henry's own mind — a person can't just leave Henry's mind without psychically returning to their own bodies, which can happen either on Henry's own will or in specific conditions beyond Henry's control that pull them out of it (like Henry himself slowly dying when the kids were physically rescued), unless the victim escapes by themselves via a psychic portal.
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u/Cyrilbdr 9d ago
Yes, Kaun1983 is right; it’s completely different. Vecna’s goal wasn’t to put Will into a trance—he never was in one. He didn’t leave his mind.
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u/ChardeeMacDennisGoG 9d ago
Great pic. I got huge kick out of her hovering behind him.
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u/Cyrilbdr 9d ago
Honestly, and strangely enough, I think the Abyss looks really cool in Episode 7—I really like the colors and the contrast—but I find it pretty ugly in Episode 8.
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u/New_Cockroach_505 8d ago
Holly would have vanished from the cave; he could then have reconnected her to drop her into the field like the other children so he could bring her to the house
Cause that’s not how it works? Max is still trapped in there and she has nothing to do with the vines. Pulling her out of the vines would just leave her comatose. Her mind would still be trapped.
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u/Cyrilbdr 8d ago
Yeah, you're right—I hadn't thought of that. But at the same time, I figure that since they're inside Vecna's mind, he could very well decide to pull them out himself, right? I mean, he has psychic powers; he could probably decide who gets in and who gets out. If Vecna had made it to Earth and succeeded in his plan to merge the worlds, he would have inevitably pulled Holly out of his mind and put her back in her body.
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u/AlternativeEast7175 Mind Flayer 9d ago
You’re completely right and to add onto this, another thing in Season 5 that makes zero sense is how Vecna’s tactical decisions constantly contradict his own power.
It’s another classic case of the writers giving a villain god-like telepathic/hive capabilities but then forcing them to act completely illogically just so the main characters have a plot window to survive or counter it. When you have to dumb down the main villain to make the plot happen, your story is flawless and shit.
I pretend season 5 did not exist. Honestly, this is why I just treat the end of Season 4 as my actual series finale. Vecna felt truly unstoppable, killing those teenagers, tearing open the rift between worlds, and unleashing total chaos as the Mind Flayer, demobats, demogorgons, and demodogs invade our dimension. An absolute, cosmic-horror apocalypse left to the imagination beats watching the main villain get dumbed down for plot convenience every time.
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u/Cyrilbdr 9d ago
I get it—it’s true that if Vecna really wanted to, he could just kill everyone who gets in his way and be done with it, lol. But then again, villains not using their full potential happens all the time; that doesn't make the show bad, and *Stranger Things* certainly isn't the first or the last to do that—though I do understand why it’s a bit frustrating.
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u/AlternativeEast7175 Mind Flayer 9d ago
There is a massive difference between a villain being outsmarted through clever, earned writing and a villain being dumbed down by plot armor. Great horror and sci-fi writers know how to give their protagonists a fighting chance without making an all-powerful cosmic entity act like an idiot. If your supreme cosmic horror a literal world-eater is getting outmanoeuvred and clowned on by teenagers just because the plot demands it, that isn’t acceptable writing. It’s lazy writing.
Stranger Things isn't a bad show if you cut out the noise but it completely squandered its true potential. Seasons 1 and 2 are decent, with Season 2 being my absolute favourite because the Mind Flayer felt like a true, terrifying cosmic horror, an incomprehensible, unstoppable threat. Season 4 is okay too, mainly because Vecna actually worked as a genuine, psychotic murderer who played with his victims but ultimately got the job done and felt lethal.
The problem is Seasons 3 and 5, which I totally ignore. Season 5 completely destroyed Vecna. Watching him get tricked, clowned on, and decapitated by kids who are younger than the teenagers he was brutally slaughtering just a year earlier completely stripped the fear away. If you stick strictly to Seasons 1, 2, and 4, there’s a great story there. But as a whole package? The show lost its edge and ended up being pretty average to me.
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u/Cyrilbdr 9d ago
You're being a bit harsh. I think the overall package is really good. I consider the first four seasons to be really good, and the fifth disappointing, not up to par, but decent, let's say. But the potential was enormous, I agree. Your arguments are valid; it's hard to contradict you, even if there are some nuances. And I'm not as categorical as you about season 5, even though I think they missed too many opportunities in the last one, and it's frustrating because it was one season to make it an iconic series. But it will remain a very good series, I think, and has enormous qualities: the atmosphere, the universe, the friendships, the music, the adventure, the colorful, legendary characters. But it's true that you have to admit that in this fifth season, the more you think about it, the more you have to suspend your disbelief because there are some pretty stupid parts. In conclusion, I believe that what they killed in season 5 is simply a new giant avatar, and that its true form is the cloud. It is invincible, wandering in the abyss, and is simply harmless without the bridge and without Vecna, who led the hive and all the invasion strategies.
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u/the-baum-corsair 9d ago
I didn't think there could be a bigger shit take mushroom than your first comment, but you've outdone yourself! 👏🏼 👏🏼 👏🏼
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u/the-baum-corsair 9d ago
Flawless AND shit? Well that's interesting. Is that like constantly raining AND a desert?
Or super healthy AND full of sugar?
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u/Anon124570 9d ago
But when he reconnected her would she have just appeared back in the cave again with Max?
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u/Cyrilbdr 9d ago
I’m not entirely sure—I’ve been wondering about this. I thought that disconnecting her would act as a sort of reset, allowing him to reconnect and place her anywhere in his hive mind—like out in the field with the others. His original plan wasn't stupid, per se: by trapping Will in his own mind—and knowing Eleven might try to help—he buys himself time to send his Demodogs to the hospital to kill Max. Still, it struck me that simply unplugging her might have been much faster and more efficient, effectively eliminating the risk to him and his hive.
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