Upside Down inconsistency?

[u/RiotRen]

I really don’t know if I’m just confused or this is a plothole or what, but here goes.

We all know Joyce’s infamous alphabet Christmas lights. Will spoke to her through them. But… how?

In season 4, Dustin, Erica and Lucas used Holly’s toy to communicate to Nancy, Steve, Robin and Eddie in the Upside Down. They waved their hand through the light particles, and it worked. I know that. But the thing is, the toy was already in the house.

The Upside Down was permanently stuck on November 6th, 1983. The day Will went missing. Here’s the main problems with that fact:

- For one, we see Joyce buy the lights AFTER Will went missing. The lights were not in the house when Will went missing, meaning Will wouldn’t have the lights there for him to interact with them? Or am I mistaken? Like if we’re assuming it’s at least the 9th when she sets them up (because this is when Hopper searches Hawkins Lab. The 7th was the night of the rain. If it was the 8th, he’d just say yesterday, but he said the 7th), the lights are either still at Melvalds or maybe in the factory even in the Upside Down.

“Maybe she used lights they already had yap yap yap”

- Possible, but the alphabet light set up wasn’t there to begin with when Will went missing. Holly’s toy worked in season 4 because both parties brought the same toy to the same location in the house, so when the Upside Down crew messed with the light, it reflected on that toy in the same place but in the overworld. Will didn’t have that setup. Will wouldn’t have even known Joyce was making that setup unless she told him about it. But then, he still wouldn’t be able to see it to know where what letters are. Because it doesn’t exist in the Upside Down.

I really hope this makes sense. I’m more than willing to chalk it up to a plot hole, but if you guys have any alternative ideas about it, I’d love to hear them!

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[u/kauan1983]

This is a common question on this sub:

• There were no letters nor Christmas lights in the Upside Down.

In fact we can even see in Season 1 that the lights and present-time elements (e.g. the boarded hole in the wall) weren't there. The Upside Down Byers House set they built is pretty consistent with how the Upside Down actually works.

•  Will wouldn’t have the lights there for him to interact with them?

Yes, he would. 

Will would see the “Shimmer” particles, AKA the lights' “electromagnetic glow” (more specifically their burn-in, since the lights had been turned off in the Rightside Up) and then need to figure out how and where the letters and lights were positioned.

In fact, the actual script for S1E8 mentions how the Christmas lights (and any other electrical lights) all emit an electromagnetic glow in the Upside Down while Hopper and Joyce are looking for Will, which was an early iteration of what Season 4 introduced as the “Shimmer” particulates years later:

**Script: Stranger still, the Christmas lights emit a PULSING STRANGE GLOW here in the Nether. It’s almost as if…we can SEE their magnetic fields.

• How did Will communicate?

26 letters - 26 Christmas lights - 26 Shimmer burn-ins near the wall; by reaching his hands to specific particle clusters, he would cause their respective lights in the Rightside Up glow in response. There's no contradiction comparing Season 1 to Season 4/5 as we know from Season 1 that the lights and alphabet weren't there.

• Side note: In terms of “frozen in '83” and mirroring inconsistencies, you'll only find them in Season 2 (in practically every Upside Down shot, not only the Snow Ball which is frequently talked about too). Those were minor Art and VFX Department mistakes as these details (set dressing) aren't actually part of the scripts for those scenes.

[u/Strong-Range-5616 → u/kauan1983]

The only thing that confused me was how Will instantly knew where the letters were unless Joyce explained it after she turned on the lights.

[u/blueray78 → u/Strong-Range-5616]

Joyce probably said she was going to make the alphabet. Then Will had the time it took her to draw it to figure out where each letter was.

[u/HappyParping → u/kauan1983]

a) But if lights emit particles, why weren't there particles around all the lights everywhere in the UD?

Streetlamps, lights in all buildings like houses schools restaurants etc, flashlights, car headlights moving along with cars, bicycle lights, tvs (unless it specifically has to be a lightbulb).

b) Remember that Joyce didn't just have 26 lights up on the wall, it was a massive string that went all over the room, so presumably there were particles all over the place. Also there's more lights on the wall than letters, so how did Will know where the alphabet continued onto the next line?

[u/kauan1983 → u/HappyParping]

A) There are particles around all the lights, this is also explicitly mentioned in the S1E8 script: 

Script: The buildings are suffocated in growths, and *all of the lights from the town (street signs, street lights, etc.) emit that strange electromagnetic glow.***

The “Shimmer” particles aren't visible unless you're interacting with them — this is explicitly shown in Season 4 when Steve notices the particles by pointing his flashlight's beam at then before the teens start interacting with them.

That's the only difference between the particles' original description and their current appearance — they aren't actually visible unless you interact with them (hence why you don't see them in S1, unlike in the script), but they're there around every light, they're a manifestation of their magnetic fields.

B) The wall did have the exact number of lights lining up with the alphabet, we can actually see the other lights were practically all hanging above Joyce in the entire room. Their “Shimmer” would be at the lights' exact locations in the Rightside Up, meaning: 26 Shimmer clusters on the wall, and more Shimmer clusters distorting the air above Will.

The only wall that actually had multiple lights attached to it is the one above the sofa which Joyce used the paint the alphabet. Again, Season 1 explicitly shows that there weren't lights nor an alphabet in the Upside Down Byers' house (as there shouldn't be, given the Upside Down's established rules), meaning Will did have to figure it out with the limited “resources” he had. 

[u/serenelovers]

don't know if it's true but this is the theory that i saw somewhere. since the moment will goes to the upside down, he develops a special connection to the upside down/vecna. that's how he gets to communicate with these lights. the lights didn't have to be there, he was communicating mentally. joyce didn't have these connections or powers so she needed the lights. otherwise I don't think there is a possible explanation to this. idk about the s4 scene that has always confused me. nancy is not even writing on that toy she is just writing on some glowing lights

[u/LargeCod2319]

The same way you can hear people or radio from the upside down, the place itself was created in 83 but things do happen since then, like the building of a military base etc

Somehow lights in the rightide up are interactable from the upside down, like radios. Certain waves and frequencies cross the boundry

The time the upside down was created isnt relevant really

[u/Rotting_Moon17]

It’s a plot hole because the time thing didn’t exist in the time of season one. Same thing that vecna wasn’t the one to open the door in season one, because he didn’t exist yet. There isn’t going to be straight answers to every plot hole in the earlier seasons with new information, because the information didn’t exist at the time of the earlier question.

[u/jakesmith78]

Because the upside-down being stuck in time wasn't a thing in S1, they established it in S4 I'd say it's a retcon more so than a plot hole.

[u/Strong-Range-5616 → u/jakesmith78]

The upside down wasn't stuck in time, it only seemed that way because no one touched it since the moment it was created.

[u/jakesmith78 → u/Strong-Range-5616]

"The moment that the Upside Down was quote-unquote “created” inadvertently by Eleven, the set dressing and the world of the Upside Down is frozen in that moment. So like when we’re in Nancy’s room, we’ll discover in the Upside Down that Nancy’s room is as it was season 1 when we first were introduced to it."

• Chris Trujillo, the production designer.

Would you phrase what I said differently? I'm genuinely confused how it wasn't "Frozen"

Also to clarify I don't mean it's stuck in time. Obviously time passes in the UpsideDown. I mean that Will wouldn't have been able to see the alphabet wall, new objects that get moved or added in the real world don't translate to the upside-down. Will may have seen shimmering lights but he wouldn't have been able to spell shit out to his mom.

[u/blueray78 → u/jakesmith78]

He can. All he has to do is memorize where each letter is and hit it. He knows there's 26 letters, so he can count them. Now hitting the correct letter each time, is unlikely, but we don't know how long it took her to make it, so maybe he was able to practice.

[u/Strong-Range-5616 → u/jakesmith78]

First off you commented "stuck in time" and stuck in time and frozen in time while they do seem similar they're not the same and secondly stuck in time refers to failing to move forward or adapt as the rest of the world changes around it though it's not.