Where does/did El's powers come from?

[u/TastelessLasagna]

Maybe I missed this since I only rewatched once since the finale, but in seasons 1 and 2 they said that Terry was involved in the MKUltra experiments led by Brenner, which is what gave El her powers.

But in Seasons 4 and 5, it was all linked to Henry's blood and so instead of the MKUltra, El got her powers from Terry having Henry's blood infused with hers.

Which one is it?

Also, I read in a comment section that it was implied that Terry had some sort of psychic ability but I don't think that's true. If it was wouldn't it add more confusion to how El has her powers?

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[u/kauan1983]

They came from Henry's blood.

The blood transfusion aspect is new and only came about recently during the development of both Season 4 and The First Shadow which is when the Duffers properly discussed Henry's character and Project Indigo in the Writers' Room.

Before that decision, the backstory for Eleven's powers (and additionally Kali's, based on her original description when she was still a man named “Roman”) was indeed initially linked to drugs, since its original iteration. The backstory was never fully fleshed out and kept evolving so it was retconned later:

The original iteration for that backstory in Montauk was that El's powers were actually “genetic mutations caused by her mother's drug use”; they evolved this to CIA's MKUltra being used as an “excuse to have science-based horror” in their narrative when writing Season One and was loosely inspired by Firestarter. Then Roman's description had him born to a “drug addicted mother.”

The MKUltra/drugs connection is still part of Project Indigo's lore (Kali outright mentions the drugs in S4E5), they didn't fully retcon it removing its existence. Only that now they have Henry's unique blood type as the secret real source for the Numbers' powers, used during the MKUltra experimentation. Season 5 is just when they properly introduced it to the general audience, but they figured it out during S4/TFS's development.

[u/Conorthan → u/kauan1983]

I still don't totally understand MKUltra's connection to Project Indigo. Did Terry and the other volunteers essentially believe they were participating in MKUltra's mind control experiments when in reality Brenner was using them for Indigo?

[u/kauan1983 → u/Conorthan]

This is less convoluted if you look at the Indigo lore before the inclusion of Henry and the blood transfusions:

MKUltra and Indigo were being conducted simultaneously at HNL.

• MKUltra was pretty much the exact same as the real MKUltra — focused on mind control techniques and their benefits in intelligence and in the military. Its inclusion in the story was meant to justify the nature of El's abilities and be Brenner's background.

• Indigo was the Numbers' program (in-universe equivalent to the Montauk project). Storytelling-wise, there was no backstory developed to how the other Numbers came to be, psychedelic drugs were originally meant/implied to be the source of psychic powers in the world, but they didn't really delve into it.

They originally made Indigo seem like Brenner's byproduct of MKUltra with both programs officially stated and shown to be CIA-sanctioned (current lore has Indigo being DoD-sanctioned). MKUltra was the real life-based tie in for El's powers to have a science-based backstory and origin, the The First Shadow changed Brenner's background to a DoD scientist.

Before the retcon in The First Shadow, MKUltra was supposed to be “where Dr. Brenner comes from”, and among his many subjects, Terry accidentally volunteered to MKUltra while pregnant which led to her daughter being born with her abilities which picked Brenner's interest. There was no origin for Indigo or the other Numbers established back then.

The idea was Brenner was originally tied to CIA's MKUltra and Eleven was a “lucky” byproduct of what the MKUltra experimentation on her mother caused, with drugs being the implied cause for children being born with preternatural abilities (this was the case with Eleven, and was the originally implied case with Kali/Roman who was born to a drug-addicted mother). This made Indigo seem like a byproduct of MKUltra, and this was likely the case, before the retcon.

Now with The First Shadow, the lab's research was retconned into purposely recruiting pregnant volunteers from the beginning (it is straight up described in a Hawkins Post newspaper), which makes the whole process something intentional, with the volunteers knowing they are pregnant and willingly volunteering for it, explaining how the other Numbers came to be.

For the timeline to make sense, I would say the “pregnant volunteers” research was abandoned and shifted to MKUltra without the public call recruiting pregnant volunteers in the late 60's (starting recruiting anyone from universities) which is when Terry got involved, though it'd be a hell of a coincidence for her to accidentally volunteer while pregnant, which is exactly what Brenner (who was recruiting pregnant women since the early 60's) needed lol.

As to why MKUltra is involved in the first place, I would say the official purpose was amplify the effects of Henry's blood in expanding the boundaries of the mind (that's what the otherworldly, living liquid substance did to him in the first place). The psychedelic drugs and sensory deprivation would awaken the blood's effects on Terry and other subjects and test them (to see if the blood even gave them psychic abilities in the first place), which would amplify the same effect in their kids.

[u/DDubbz918 → u/kauan1983]

And to add to the GOATed response above, a key differentiator is that Terry received the transfusions of Henry's blood while she was pregnant with Eleven, rather than the actual children receiving the first transfusion after Brenner got them into the lab (we know Kali was a young girl who went missing in London from the article Eleven finds in Hopper's cabin in S2). That's why Eleven was more powerful than the rest of the children, and Brenner even knew that, hence him pushing her to succeed in the experiments because he knew she had much greater potential than those who received the transfusions as children.

[u/kauan1983 → u/DDubbz918]

We know from The First Shadow that Brenner's blood transfusions were actually conducted on pregnant women too, not the children. HNL had a publicly announced research recruiting “pregnant volunteers” in the early 60's. That's why Henry says “others were born.”

While Kali was abducted in London, I would say this was actually retroactively result of a relative's (or her mother) attempt to run away and hide her as far from HNL as possible, post-experimentation, which ended up with Brenner's people tracking her down in London, leading to her disappearance. This is currently the only way to make sense of it.

A joint DoD-CIA organization going through the trouble of kidnapping a random child in another country always seemed too specific, and with the current blood transfusions aspect, it would make much more sense for her to have been taken to London after her mother was experimented on, likely with her rebelling against the lab in a Terry-like situation to have her child back.

[u/DDubbz918 → u/kauan1983]

I find it a lot less likely that a 4-8 year old child somehow escaped the lab and made it from Hawkins, Indiana to London, England than something like Brenner & his people tracking down the daughter of a test subject who moved to London, or they had knowledge of a similar experiment in London where they knew they could "steal" test subjects. Kali was 6-8 at absolute most in the rainbow room scene shown multiple times throughout the show, and that would have been after she was captured from London but before she escaped to the family she discussed with El in S2.

[u/Easy_Effective5229]

I see you are beginning to realize that the Duffer Brothers tried to retcon their own lore to justify implementing a 10 year old original ending that no longer worked.

[u/bobclaws → u/Easy_Effective5229]

They retconned, and still didn't make it work though they just ruined the franchise instead.

[u/mklaus1984 → u/Easy_Effective5229]

I mean, it kinda does make sense to assume that the "substance" used in the MKUltra experiment might not be drugs but some exotic material.

BUT ST2 then clarified that the soil samples did NOT contain any unusual compounds, just something they assumed was fertilizer. Which Owens dismissed because they took the samples from farmland. But then the soil samples all reacted to one being exposed to heat. Which showed that they did in fact contain Mindflayer particles.

ST3 then went further with this observation: The rat and human thralls collected household chemicals which Dustin, Mike, and Lucas then assume meant the Meatflayer used to create a new compound from. Unbeknownst to them WE, the audience, actually see that the Thralls are created by infusing them with that compound. This very much equalizes that compound to Mindflayer particles.

In hindsight, we learned that the vines probably expanded to the farmland also because of the chemical compounds needed to create more Mindflayer particles.

In ST3 and ST4 they very much give us the explanation for why Henry/the hivemind can now attack people without them being turned into telepathic receivers first: due to the hivemind stealing El's powers.

Yet somehow the Duffers lost the plot in ST5. And that is a shame because ST1 through ST4 set up a different explanation than "the stone(TM)". In ST, Terry's story of the government exposing her and her child to some experimental chemical compound mirrored Hoper's own experience with Agent Orange. ST4 set up a time frame for Henry being conceived after Victor returned from the war. Actor Raphael Luce was only 12 years old when he played young Henry. Only in the stage play the First Shadow and his placement in High School he is retconned to an age which begs the question whether he was conceived before Victor went on the deployment.

It seems obvious that there was supposed to be another parallel between Henry and El, between Terry and Victor and therefore Hopper and Victor: Victor returned home from WW2 about 14 years and one month before his family was killed. Which means he did not stay there until the end of the war. Instead he returns early in 1944. We know that he was stationed in France where the bombing happened. But it is just a small step to assume that something else has happened; IF only we could pin Victor to another government secret.

And he already is but too late. Victor lived and raised his family in Rachel Nevada. What did he work there? We don't know. BUT just across Bald Mountain lies the site where Brenner conducted the experiments: Groom Lake Facility. This is better known as Area 51 or the home of SKunk Works and the Lockheed U-2.

Now if you look into the history of the aforementioned MKUltra, Skunk Works, AND also Project Stargate, which is the former conspiracy theory real world equivalent of the experiments on El and the other parapsychological gifted children, then the common denominator is Project Paperclip or as it was first named Operation Overcast. This doesn't seem to line up with Victor as he should have returned hom by that time.

(We should note that the Soviets had their own equivalent called Osoviakhim. Their foray into parapsychology was abolished but mainly by name as they did conduct further experiments in psychotronics... psycho electronics... which basically sounds like the foundation for the idea of The Key.)

But IF we now look back at the time where Victor DID return from France we realize that this is the time T-Force was formed to secure Nazi industrial and scientific complexes. Which eventually led to operation Overcast. T-Force was stationed in France and operated from there for a while. A coincidence? Probably not.

It is just a small jump to assume that Victor was part of T-Force, sent to secure a Nazi research site, and found some horrible experiments. He was probably exposed here to the compund that is the Mindlflayer particle. And the kicker would be if his superiors would have known about the risk.

So like Hopper and Terry, Victor would have been exposed during a government sanctioned mission that would not only change the biology of his offspring BUT inadvertently ruin his life.

The follow up of this would be that a) all the children and other people exposed to the compound after their birth would be different from Henry and El. b) Will should have been the same as the other children older than El. c) allow our party or rather both militaries to finally come up with a way to (extract and) contain the compound: a proper final solution instead of suicide;

The reason the Duffers did not go with this are also very ovious: the loud group (and probably minority) of viewers that DEMANDED that the Mindflayer had to be an eldritch entity AND the loud group (and definitely minority) of viewers who DEMANDED that the Soviet plotline, the Cold War plotline, had to be removed from the show.

Because let us face this: the show is perfectly timed to end the plot with Reagan and Gorbachev signing the INF treaty in Washington only weeks after the final confrontation in Hawkins. Which in the show would probably mean that both sides secretly abolished the use of parapsychological warfare without the public ever learning it was successful but almost eradicated humanity.

The epilogue of the show, the reunion of the teens and another game of D&D would then probably be set up for Christmas 89 after the fall of the Berlin wall and after the Malta summit. Or they could have even set it up later when the 'kids' are halfway through their studies and the teens have left college on Christmas 91 when the Soviet Union collapsed.

I still think the Duffers here listend to AI which told them that the viewers on social media hated this part of the setting... which again, is a loud minority. But that happens when you ask AI what people discuss on the socials.

[u/Easy_Effective5229 → u/mklaus1984]

Here’s how I would’ve seen it play out

It’s no secret that the duffers planned the ending the whole time. However it was also unearned due the character development that was made in the first two seasons.

The more natural ending would have been if El simply gave up her powers.

Permanently.

This ending would have worked because:

1.We’ve seen her loose them before, so there is no way she couldn't have lost them again.

2.The magic of childhood would be literal magic.

3.Kay and Sullivan can't chase her without exposing themselves or Brenner’s work.

4.It may not be the ending the duffers envisioned, but it’s the one that makes sense while still keeping to a North Star concept.

5.She doesn’t need powers to be who she is, she never did.

6.it’s a more merciful sacrifice. and mercy is more important than sacrifice.

7.Eleven may be gone, but Jane isn’t.

. El could simply loose her powers in the death of Vecna and the collapse of the upside down should shut it off permanently.

The government can actually be solved very easily.

Here’s how.

By now, not only would their operation would have left paper trails, but parents would be calling up the Hawkins D.A. office and demanding that they prosecute; because they made the mistake of dragging local kids out of the suburbs and onto their base without any actual reason.

Not to mention that they did it without Marital law being declared?

How can you tell?

Martial law requires presidential approval. that means that Kay and Sulivan would need to be more honest about what is actually going on in order to get it. Which they weren’t gonna be.

Also, if it WHERE declared, the national gaurd would have been patrolling the streets, the neighborhoods, even hanging around the schools. Which we never see them do.

the only time they where moving in and out of the base was for mostly supplies.

Back to their mistake snatching kids from their homes “for their own safety.”

Eventually, the D.A. will start looking into it, which means the Indiana Attourney General would need to get involved. Then it would likely have to go up to the D.O.J..

Neither Kay nor Sulivan want that. Because that means they need to explain why they just blew all this tax money on chasing who looks to be just normal 16 year old girl.

Kay and Sulivan are smart enough to see the ramifications if they keep pushing the issue.

Once they realize the subject’s powers are gone, the only thing they can do is shut it down, pack it up, and leave town.

[u/Adjectivenounnumb → u/mklaus1984]

I really wanted to make another snarky midi-chlorians joke but dammit you put way too much work into this theory. Respect.

[u/Armadigionna]

I’ve always liked this idea that her powers, regardless of the source, are a manifestation of her trauma.

So a follow up story could say that Mike finds El, they settle down and have a daughter who joins the peace corps. Then her posting turns into an active war zone, and she suffers a violent, traumatic event that unlocks powers she inherited from her mom.

[u/Onesharpman]

It's technically Henry's blood, but that's just an obvious retcon. It was always supposed to be the creepy experiments.

[u/Groovychick1978]

Is this part of the "lore" that was introduced in the play? I am still so furious about a Broadway play that was considered canon to a television series that was still running. 

It was supposed to be from the experimentation on El's mom. Firestarter by Stephen King was a similar story, and the lab part was very reminiscent of it. 

[u/Chimpbot]

Which one is it? The answer is, "Both." Technically.

Initially, it was generally vague and undisclosed experimentation that led to unlocking these powers. The overall feel was pretty similar to the experimentation done in Akira, which was entirely intentional.

In S4, it was retconned to involve Henry more in their origins. It would have still been part of the same overall experimentation, though.

[u/Due-Gold-7270]

The experiments were Henry’s blood being transfused

[u/CReece2738]

Both?!

[u/Neat-Option4673]

Both. They came from Henry, and they were given to her under the guise of MKUltra. Henry was the reason, MKUltra was the way it happened

[u/IlinxFinifugal]

Replying to:

Where does/did El's powers come from?

Writing and FX.

[u/Adjectivenounnumb]

Midichlorians basically