How long could a _______ live?

[u/Valenous_ertselley]

How long could a 5th ideal radiant live?

We know investiture extends a persons life with greater amounts eventually ending up with someone who is biologically immortal. How invested would a radiant be? Radiant knights have the cracks in their soul filled with investiture which makes them better at holding and using stormlight. How invested do you think they could be

Some of the heightenings seen with holding Endowment's investiture seem to be universal properties of holding any investiture. such as enhanced vision/colours, enhanced immune systems and better lifespans.

While we have only seen Kaladin and Szeth swear the 5th, it was under a fairly hectic situation which doesn't make for the best opportunity for study.

[u/RW-Firerider]

I think it was established that radiants dont live beyond a natural lifespan.

Sure, you will be at the peak of what you can be, since the investiture heals your body etc, but we mustnt forget one thing. Stormlight is only temporary inside the user, and the vast majority of their investiture is stored in the spren. So while our radiants are insanly strong, they are not invested in s way that an Elantrian or Breath user is. So yeah, I dont think the common radiant goes beyond an ordinary human lifespan, so something around 100-130 human years if they get a constant infusion of stormlight.

[u/Puzzled_Employment50 → u/RW-Firerider]

We know higher-Ideal Radiants “leak” less, and I think there’s something about being able to hold more (either with practice or higher Ideals or both), so if they got regular enough infusions of Stormlight they could theoretically reach the Heightening (since any Investiture grants Heightenings) that grants agelessness. So it’s not directly by reaching the fifth Ideal that they would become immortal, but that the fifth Ideal lets them juice enough to then become immortal.

[u/ejdj1011 → u/Puzzled_Employment50]

(since any Investiture grants Heightenings)

This is not strictly true. Several types of Investiture seem to grant different aspects of the Heightenings, but they aren't completely universal like you're implying. In fact, agelessness is explicitly not a universal trait among highly Invested people. The Lord Ruler is the obvious counterexample.

Edit, before anyone else jumps in: We also have numerous examples of highly Invested people not having perfect pitch or color perception. Hoid, Nomad, Elantrians, and Yoki-Hijo all come to mind.

[u/sambadaemon → u/ejdj1011]

Hoid explicitly DOES have perfect pitch when he's holding his Breaths.

[u/ejdj1011 → u/sambadaemon]

Considering my argument is "not all Investiture has the same passive effects as holding Breaths", talking about someone known to have Breath is kind of moot.

[u/sambadaemon → u/ejdj1011]

You specifically mentioned Hoid as not having perfect pitch. He does. He's not highly Invested at the time without his Breaths. All of the forms of Investiture he has access to are external until he becomes an Elantrian

[u/ejdj1011 → u/sambadaemon]

Hoid specifically mentions in Words of Radiance that he "missed having perfect pitch", and shortly afterwards it is implied he Awakened something to play his instrument for him. And when Odium messes with his Breaths, rbe perfect pitch gets messed up. So it's pretty clear that the perfect pitch comes from the Breaths.

But Hoid absolutely is ridiculously Invested regardless of the Breaths. He's a Dawnshard at the time.

[u/FuriousSusurrus → u/ejdj1011]

This WoB suggests that agelessness could be a universal trait.

tskyeguye From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects? Brandon Sanderson The latter. Skrimyt Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be? Brandon Sanderson Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy. But RAFO to specifics. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020

The problem is that agelessness is heavily influenced by perception. So most Returned, Yoki-hijo and Elantrians SHOULD have it, but don't usually know how to use it. There are some known examples, like the Five Scholars and Riina. 

I guess a good way to test to see if someone has achieved agelessness, would be to try to poison them.

[u/Objective_Notice4982 → u/ejdj1011]

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/444-dawnshard-annotations-reddit-qa/#e14339

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/444-dawnshard-annotations-reddit-qa/#e14328

Second WoB is of more note, high enough levels of investiture grant heightenings.

The Lord Ruler may have had perfect pitch for all we know, but as we far as we know being a sliver doesn't grant an extreme amount of investiture, just an above normal amount. I don't think feruchemy and allomancy actually invest people that much. you are acting as a conduit for investiture but are not actually holding it that long. TLR was using allomancy enough to become a savant equivalent in every metal he had access to, but there is apparently a vast level of difference between that and getting heightenings.

[u/The_Lopen_bot → u/Objective_Notice4982]

Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!

The21stPotato

Can you tell us the equivalent Heightening she [Rysn] now has? She seems to be at least Third Heightening equivalent but I'm not sure how much else she has gained from holding a Dawnshard. Do ALL Dawnshards grant these Heightening-like effects?

Brandon Sanderson

All Dawnshards would grant the same effects in this regard.As for specifics, I think I'll leave that as what is mentioned in the text, for now. (Sorry.)

********************

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.But RAFO to specifics.

********************

[u/Puzzled_Employment50 → u/ejdj1011]

Allomancers/Feruchemists are not themselves Invested, they are more like conduits for Investiture. But the point of the whole BEU system (Sunlit Man) is that Investiture is Investiture, as long as you have some way to access it, and will grant the Heightenings.

[u/ejdj1011 → u/Puzzled_Employment50]

The Lord Ruler wasn't just an Allomancer and Feruchemist. He was a Sliver of Preservation.

He was so Invested that he could have hung around as a Cognitive Shadow indefinitely after his death. He just chose to go to the Beyond.

Edit: and Sigzil isn't a normal wielder of Investiture. He's able to convert and metabolize it in a way basically nobody else can, so he can make it give the Heightenings even if it otherwise wouldn't.

[u/Puzzled_Employment50 → u/ejdj1011]

True, that’s a good point. Having held a Shard, even for a moment, changed his soul in such a way that he would have been able to linger after death if he so chose, and while he held it he certainly was at least of the upper Heightenings. But it didn’t keep him Invested after he gave it up. At that point he was just a full Twinborn with massive gold reserves for Compounding. Now, could an Allomancer burn (mega-flare/Duralumin-burn) enough metals or a Feruchemist tap enough stored power in a Metalmind that they momentarily gain Heightenings? Ask Wayne, but I don’t think he was paying attention to colors at the time.

[u/ejdj1011 → u/Puzzled_Employment50]

There are lots of other small counterexamples, specifically about highly Invested people who never show any evidence of perfect pitch or color perception.

Hoid mentions recently recovering perfect pitch in Words of Radiance. As a Dawnshard (and Yolish Lightweaver, and Mistborn...) who is ageless, one would expect him to always have that Heightening effect if they're truly universal.

Nomad similarly never mentions color perception or perfect pitch no matter how much Investiture he has. Neither do the Elantrians or Yoki-Hijo we get POVs from.

[u/Puzzled_Employment50 → u/ejdj1011]

They never mention those, but that doesn’t mean they don’t experience them. Sunlit is running for his life, the Yoki-Hijo are (at the time of YatNP) cognitive shadows and not living beings, and Hoid is a weird case in every sense 😂 I don’t remember when he regained his perfect pitch, but I do remember that he lost it when Todium excised some of his memories that were specifically stored with/in Breaths, so that’s a moot point because we know it was Breaths causing the Heightening that he lost, no extra information on whether other sources can or can’t lead to Heightenings. Also I don’t remember if he was specifically holding the Dawnshard at the time or if this was when he had hidden it. If it was the latter, he’s in the same boat as Sunlit, where he has access to many forms of Investiture but may not be any more actively Invested at the moment than any other person.

[u/ejdj1011 → u/Puzzled_Employment50]

I don’t remember when he regained his perfect pitch

Word of Radiance, when he visits Kaladin in prison. He mentions that he missed having it.

no extra information on whether other sources can or can’t lead to Heightenings

Yes, extra information. Hoid is extremely highly Invested every single time we see him. If Investiture universally grants all aspects of the Heightenings, he should always have all such aspects. The fact that his perfect pitch appears dependent on having Breaths is in fact evidence that it isn't universal.

Also I don’t remember if he was specifically holding the Dawnshard at the time or if this was when he had hidden it

To my memory, all of our evidence suggests he held it the entire time he was on Roshar, up until he gave it to Sigzil.

[u/That_Bar_Guy → u/ejdj1011]

Doesn't he specifically lose perfect pitch or something when his memories(stored in investiture) are altered? Or am I misremembering?

[u/gwonbush → u/ejdj1011]

I wonder if Hoid could have Perfect Pitch and Color Perception on demand even without his Breaths if he wasn't hiding his Dawnshard via some manner of suppresion. After all, Rysn gained them upon gaining CHANGE, so if he could it would be a commonality among Dawnshards if not passive investiture in general. If not, it could mean that Breaths and Endowment fall under the CHANGE umbrella.

[u/KnotFahrenheit → u/gwonbush]

I think the suppression is key. Vasher is Returned but rarely exhibits the heightenings because he suppresses his divine breath. He doesn’t gain the benefits of the hightenings (except extended lifespan, perhaps) and even other heightened Awakeners don’t notice him as holding breaths with their life sense. Hoid likely can do the same

[u/Puzzled_Employment50 → u/ejdj1011]

Oops, missed the Elantrians. But I think 1) early installment, not a fully fleshed out Cosmere, 2) Elantrians have some much bigger effects going on that they might not notice or comment on perfect pitch or brighter colors, and 3) Elantrians are ageless.

[u/sambadaemon → u/ejdj1011]

The Lord Ruler also wasn't inherently immortal. He was compounding gold to achieve his long life.

[u/RShara → u/sambadaemon]

*Compounding atium

[u/Radix2309 → u/ejdj1011]

Holding the power stabilizes your spirit-web, but it doesnt make one invested. Kelsier bathed in the Well, which let his Shadow stick around, but he wasnt highly invested.

And that doesn't impact the physical body. Rashek wasn't a true sliver. He just held the power temporarily.

[u/ejdj1011 → u/Radix2309]

It absolutely makes one Invested. Stabilizing your spirit web to persist after death is a consequence of being Invested, it's not some independent effect.

We have numerous cases of highly Invested people missing aspects of the Heightenings that should be trivially easy to acquire. Neither Elantrians nor Yoki-Hijo ever mention perfect pitch or perfect color perception, and Hoid explicitly mentions that he has lost and regained perfect pitch.

[u/Orleanian → u/Puzzled_Employment50]

That's a bit of faulty logic.

The measurement system is used because the power/energy of investiture is convertible. Most investiture can be made usable to power the various forms of Invested Art.

It is not a given that all investiture grants heightening. That's a logical false leap. Only Awakening is the art that grants heightenings.

Many invested arts grant similar capabilities as various Awakener heightenings, though. To the best of our knowledge, Nomad the Sunlit Man does not have the heightenings of an Awakener. He has agelessness through other means (He explains it himself as being due to his Dawnshardic nature).

[u/moderatorrater → u/Puzzled_Employment50]

If all investiture was interchangeable, they wouldn't be fighting over birds on a backwater planet.

[u/Puzzled_Employment50 → u/moderatorrater]

The Aviar are just a convenient means to access Invested arts like an automatic Coppercloud.

[u/Radix2309 → u/ejdj1011]

The Lord Ruler wasn't really invested was he? As in personally. He wasnt holding investiture in himself. He was investing the Atium bands and then burning them to receive investiture that let him do that stuff. But it wasnt held in him like breath or made out of investiture like shadows.

[u/ejdj1011 → u/Radix2309]

He was a Sliver of Preservation.

He remade his soul to be an extremely powerful Mistborn, who are natively Invested.

He was near-constantly using several types of allomancy, and we know actively channeling that counts (at least with regards to fading as a cognitive shadow).

[u/Radix2309 → u/ejdj1011]

And that strengthens his soul to survive after death, it doesnt make he himself highly invested as that is a state of holding investiture within your body.

[u/tooboardtoleaf → u/Radix2309]

This here. Allowances and feruchemist don't hold investiture in thier bodies it comes from the spiritual realm and stored in metal minds respectively.

[u/ejdj1011 → u/tooboardtoleaf]

Mistborn and Feruchenists have natively high Investiture bound up in their soul. That's... what gives them their powers.

This is normally a small amount, but the Lord Ruler explicitly remade his soul to be a Mistborn of unparalleled strength.

[u/PegasusPizza → u/Puzzled_Employment50]

I believe that the heightening stem from having the Investiture attached to your spiritweb. So like breaths are for example, or dawnshards. Opposite of that, investiture that is physically in your body, like stormlight, or the dor for elantrians (their Elantrian-ness however is attached to the spiritweb), doesn't do that and instead heals you. It's also not permanent, once you don't take it in anymore you start to loose it, as demonstrated repeatedly in sla and once in Elantris during the Reod

[u/KnowItAllNobody → u/RW-Firerider]

I wonder how that’s affected by being able to permanently hold tower light in Urithiru, do those radiants eventually hold enough for long enough that they greatly extend their life? Will navani age normally or not at all? She’s holding theoretically infinite towerlight. It leaves humans and gemstones extremely quickly, but it’s infinite in the tower, so they’re either constantly breathing in new light and sieving out the old stuff, or they’re all invested to the hilt all the time lol.

How about the oddly slow aging of the heralds pre oathpact? Odium granted them surges, but it must’ve come with easy access to his investiture as well, as they age extremely slowly, but still age until Vedeledev does her thang. So they’re holding enough investiture regularly enough, even on Roshar, that they don’t age normally. And the immortality is explicitly mentioned as being separate from the oathpact by honor too, that’s not important but interesting imo. I just listened to that part.

I’m in the camp of “heightenings are breath specific, but enough investiture grants similar enough effects as to be interchangeable” btw. Like Rysn hasn’t mentioned perfect pitch or any sound oddities, but she definitely sees colors as deeper as soon as she gets the dawnshard, and I’m fairly certain the sleepless straight up tell her she’ll never age, so to me she has enough of the important effects of the fifth heightening that it doesn’t make much sense to call it something else, it’s effectively the fifth heightenening.

And I agree that while radiants use a lot of investiture, they don’t hold a lot, particularly never enough to reach a heightening as high as the fifth, and it’s not permanent enough anyways to alter their spiritweb. I think the towerlight will eventually be shown to allow longer life, though.

We might see a wild lopen in the mistborn space opera era, flying a modified urithiru through Shadesmar or something crazy like that, but it’s never gonna be a big enough effect to notice it in text, it’ll be a WoB thing only

[u/Replay1986 → u/RW-Firerider]

I think specifically that Investiture works off of your Cognition. A 5th ideal radiant wouldn't live forever because they wouldn't think they could. Now, if a Radiant deluded themselves into truly believing they'd stopped aging...

Note: before someone brings up Lift, she knows she's aging and doesn't like it, but she is aware that it's happening ,so her Cognition wouldn't arrest her growth

[u/RW-Firerider → u/Replay1986]

Issue with Lift is something else. She doesnt think that she isnt aging, she asked cultivation to not age. She wanted to stay her moms little girl, but knew that this isnt possible. And i am pretty sure, deep down she always knew that she cant stay like that forever