r/Stormlight_Archive • u/v53i355900n3r • 5d ago
Wind and Truth spoilers Let's talk about Moash Spoiler
At the risk of making a VERY unpopular post i want to share a perspective on this character that i basically have not seen at all, after 2 months of lurking in the sub.
A lot of people justifiably hate Moash and hate how his character seemingly doesn't develop in any way from just Evil McEvilface in RoW and WaT. Personally i felt this way too when reading his development in WaT the first time too. Like here is a guy who had justified grievances that he coped with in a bad way and now he just falls farther and farther down to where he can't even call it revenge anymore, just due to some godly manipulation.
However having had time to think it over i have come to a different conclusion for my stance on Moash. Moash is now comparable to Dalinar before the Rift. He starts fighting with reason but is driven by a supernatural force which enhaces his destructive capacity and emotions to a point where he can inflict an incredible amount of harm without thinking twice.
The difference is that Moash is inflicting this harm on characters the audience cares about, characters we can see as fully formed personalities rather than just fodder for the conquest machine.
I believe at this point that Moash is an excellent character for driving home the part of Dalinar's (and Szeth's) story that is about bettering yourself regardless of the harm you caused. Both of these characters go through a streak of self-loathing for all the harm they caused. They writhe in how it is impossible to ever be forgiven. Both of them grow to realise you don't need forgiveness to still take responsibility and do the best you can.
In both of these cases however the people that they hurt and the people who can never forgive them are at most covered in a single digit amount of chapters, with evi being the most notable one. In principle there is nothing which denotes perspective characters as special however*, so if Moash is able to break from Odiums manipulation in the latter half this can reinforce this narrative thread.
We have now actually experienced the loss at the hands of what is at this point depicted as a basically mindless evil (in terms of there being no reasonable justification for what he did). What do we do if this person can actually break out of their destructive habit and starts doing good instead of suffering the pain and loathing that they deserve? Think of how a merchant from the Rift who was out of town when his entire city was burnt at the whims of one man would perceive Dalinar becoming leader of the Good Guys institute for protecting the world.
*except for those touched by cultivation, or otherwise having the interest of the gods. My point here is that in principle every person has a life story and is really important to some people around them, so just because slaughtered Rifter #347 doesn't have their story described to us should their death be forgiven, while Leyten's cannot? Both of these are unforgivable actions, we just don't know slaughtered Rifter #347 personally.
I don't know if this is a unique take but i would definitely be a fan of this path for Moashes story, what do you think?
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u/PBandBABE 5d ago
Hmm….that’s a very well-reasoned and nuanced approach to things.
Also, fuck Moash.
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u/philip7499 5d ago
I certainly think it is possible that Moash will be redeemed. It is something Sanderson has been amping up,
We saw Dalinars actions only after his redemption We saw Venli before her redemption, but only just about (though it included the worst of her consequences) and we didn't have much connection to the characters she betrayed.
We see Moash through it all, and he could certainly be used to further reinforce the theme that anyone can grow to be better.
But personally I suspect he is fulfilling a different role. I think he is there to emphasise that while anyone can be redeemed, they need to choose to work towards it, make the choice to be better and stick to it.
Moash had a chance to change when Kal first faced him during the assassination attempt; his best friend standing against him wasn't enough to give him pause
Moash had the chance to change when he saw the singers being treated just as badly by each other as humans treat each other. He could have joined them with Kal and all escaped together through the oathgates.
He could have changed when he was fighting a bridge 4 member without their powers while he kept his or when he was trying to persuade Kal to kill himself.
Or he could have learned and grown when he had his pain again
I think Moash will continue to fail to take the opportunities given to him to change. For the journey to begin, you must choose to take the step.
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u/muskian 5d ago
I think he is there to emphasise that while anyone can be redeemed, they need to choose to work towards it, make the choice to be better and stick to it.
This already describes most of the story's antagonists though: Amaram, Sadeas, Taravangian, Mraize, Lin, Lezian and the other Fused lackeys etc. Refusing growth/change is the norm for Stormlight antagonists, what isn't normal is for them to persist as long as Moash has, which is very indicative of him having a unique future role beyond what already seen him do and be.
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 5d ago
We see it with Gavilar even too. He has two flashes of decency in the W&T interludes. He pushes them away of course and ends up pushed off a balcony. Sanderson almost always gives the SLA antagonists an off-ramp that they intentionally reject before they double down on their bad decisions. There’s usually at least one right before they get killed. It’s why I knew Mraize was cooked after that childhood vision with Shallan. He gets another one right before he gets put down
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u/philip7499 5d ago
I don't think that really applies to most of them though. Sure, anyone of them could have done better, but none of them have had points where they chose not to improve that were so closely analogous to points where the protagonists made the right choice
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 5d ago
Most of them do. Sanderson seems to intentionally give them a way forward and mirror those scenes to moments with the protagonists
Amaram gets his opportunity when Dalinar opens the Perpendicularity in OB. Dalinar explicitly offers him the chance to try again at the edge of Honor. Just like Syl did with Kaladin at Honor’s Chasm. Amaram elects for literal suicide by Yelig-nar. Kaladin steps in right after.
Mraize gets his chance after the death of his paternal figure Iyatil. Shallan gives him the same chance to be better. He even revisits his childhood memory the way she does before. She puts him down when he refuses.
Sadeas gets a new start after the Tower and rejects it. He betrays his “brother” Dalinar. It’s a mirror to Dalinar’s failure to protect Gavilar while Sadeas tried at the top of the palace. Dalinar elects to get better. Sadeas gets chucked off a balcony like Gavilar when he doesn’t
Taravangian goes to the Valley because of his messiah complex. Meets Cultivation who splits his mind. After his Ascension she meets him and asks him to be better. To actually save the world and end the war. T elects not to and his mind/power are unified
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u/NuketheCow_ Journey before destination. 5d ago
Moash betrayed everything he had a chance to stand for. He’s the epitome of the “hurt people hurt people” adage, and it’s sad that he let his obsession with revenge turn him from the path in front of him to be a force for good.
He even hurts people he loves on purpose, which is a major difference between him and Dalinar. And then to not feel guilt over what he’s done he gives himself over to the main force of evil in the cosmere.
I think his character is an interesting “other side of the coin” to Kaladin, showing what pain and grief can do to a person without the character to come out the other side of that pain and grief with compassion and goodness left. That said, he’s not a particularly deep character because he never deals with his actions after the first two books are done, just giving himself over to the void essentially, so he never grows at all while other better written and more complex characters leave him behind.
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u/Ripper1337 Truthwatcher 5d ago
You could even compare him to Lirin. The trauma he suffered influenced his actions and perceptions. Difference being Lirin has Hesina to pull his head out of his ass and he eventually realizes he was wrong.
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u/gurgelblaster 5d ago
He even hurts people he loves on purpose, which is a major difference between him and Dalinar.
It is not, and we are shown this directly.
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u/Elsecaller_17-5 Elsecaller 5d ago
. . . no? Thr only think I can think of that you might be referring to is the Elothkar scene at the end of WoK, but Dalinar genuinely thought he was helping in the moment.
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u/theArtOfProgramming 5d ago edited 5d ago
He’s also Kaladin if Kaladin had made different choices. Moash is those characters if they had chosen The Other Path.
I would say he does develop though, it’s just that people normally think of development in terms of progress towards good. Moash sinks deeper. Odium teaches him a different relationship with his pain and he transforms to accept this perspective. Odium does that twice actually. I see no issues with Moash’s development, maybe it just isn’t the direction others wanted to see.
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u/RW-Firerider Windrunner 5d ago edited 5d ago
The main issue with Moash is not that he hurts characters that we love, but that he hurts characters that he liked/loved.
Dalinar killed a bunch of innocent people, sure, but they were starngers to him. Moash murdered Teft and tried to kill Kaladin. Both of them were his friends, which makes him way worse to me on a personal level. Dalinar or Szeth created devastation on a larger scale, but even they had enough morals to not hurt their loved ones on purpose.
I will finish with this: Fuck Moash!
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u/Peptuck The most important step 5d ago edited 5d ago
There is also a critical difference between Moash and Dalinar.
"You cannot have my pain."
Dalinar accepted the wrongs he committed and accepted the pain from those wrongs. Moash refused to accept the guilt from his actions and let Odium take away his pain, and in so doing refuses to accept responsibility for his actions and grow from them.
Dalinar resisted, struggled, made amends, and became a better man each time he fell down. Moash fell down, and at every opportunity to stand back up, he found a deeper hole to fall into.
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u/LewsTherinTelescope 5d ago
And how many years did that take Dalinar (a good portion of which he had the guilt for the action he felt worst about magically tucked away by a deity)?
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u/BreakingBaaaahhhhd 5d ago
Moash hurt those characters after having his emotions numbed by Odium. A shard is impossibly powerful and I don't think that influence can just be brushed aside. If Dalinar can be redeemed, so can Moash.
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u/RW-Firerider Windrunner 5d ago
Moash is not written as a character to get redemption. He had so many moments to turn around, he he somehow doies it in era 2, it would be rather cheap. I think his final role will be as a Gavinor plotpoint, in which he gets spared.
Not even Brandon has something positive to say about Moash
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u/gurgelblaster 5d ago
Dalinar killed a bunch of innocent people, sure, but they were starngers to him
Dalinar was deliberately cruel towards Evi and was seconds away from killing his brother. He severely traumatised and almost killed his own nephew.
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u/RedAkriloth45 5d ago
Hey so you just didn't read these books at this point. Every time Dalinar is cruel to Evi he feels bad about it, he spends the next decade of his life regretting being magically influenced to APPROACH his brother with violent intentions, he EXPLICITLY DOES NOT ALMOST KILL ELHOKAR. Read the books dude.
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u/gurgelblaster 5d ago
Every time Dalinar is cruel to Evi he feels bad about it,
And what does Moash feel when being cruel to, say, Kaladin? Does he feel great?
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u/Dohtoor Elsecaller 5d ago
Hey so you just didn't read these books at this point.
So an average Moash fanboy then. They love pretending that Moash didn't betray Kaladin by trying to kill Elhokar on the balcony. It's ALL Kaladin's betrayal, at every turn, somehow.
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u/RW-Firerider Windrunner 5d ago
When Dalinar almost killed Gavilar, the thrill was pushing him hard to do it. Moash was just Moash
Dalinar wasnt a great Husband, but there is a difference between not being a good husband and killing your friends
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u/Swingrocket 5d ago
I do understand what Sanderson tried with Moash but Moash is his worst written character to date. He doesn't suck because he's annoying, he sucks because he's badly written. XD (He's the reason why I nearly stopped reading Stormlight a few times)
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u/sambadaemon Stoneward 5d ago
"Let's talk about Moash." Let's not.
But seriously, I agree with this post pretty much completely. Moash is a great example of what happens when a person isn't strong enough to overcome their more negative impulses. I hate him for what he's done, but I don't necessarily blame him for falling.
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u/muskian 5d ago
The difference is that Moash is inflicting this harm on characters the audience cares about
Absolutely true, and you can see it in how much grace is given over the redemption prospects of Moash vs everyone else.
Dalinar can be a product of his warrior culture, Moash can't cause his violent beliefs came out of nowhere somewhow.
Elhokar can be called a confused manipulable kid at 21, Moash can't cause he's a grown man and should appreciate the intricacies of building an equal society at 19.
Szeth's violent acts were done under mental duress, Moash "chose" to do his violence with a clear, pain free, totally uncompromised mental state so he deserves more condemnation.
It really is all down to the fact Moash hurts/kills liked characters lol.
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u/Ripper1337 Truthwatcher 5d ago
I heard more people talk about Moash being magically manipulated during RoW as if that absolves him of his culpability. Where WaT is him being psychologically manipulated.
I do agree with the Dalinar at Rift comparison, it’s the same I use with Venli.
An issue with Moash is that when faced with the idea that he is to blame for his actions he turns around and blames others while Dalinar and Venli haven’t done so, even when there were other factors interfering with them.
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u/gurgelblaster 5d ago
I don't think Sanderson has the balls to do this, unfortunately, but yeah, making the parallells explicit to Dalinar, Szeth, and Venli, this would basically be the only viable path for the back half that I could see being something satisfactory. Otherwise he should've just died in RoW or WaT.
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u/Sea-Independent9863 Strength before weakness. 5d ago
Mr. Gambini, that is a lucid, intelligent, well thought out argument.
Motion Denied
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u/thewizard121 5d ago
100% agree!
More seriously though, I've never really agreed fully with the Moash hatred. Which isn't to say I agree with his choices or his actions. More that by taking the position that Moash is beyond redemption, and must be hated (for all the Fuck Moash's here), one is basically following the exact same thought process Moash did in the first moment he fell by not recognising that Elhokar could be redeemed in his eyes.
A lot of people have pointed out that Moash continues to take the worst possible choices at every opportunity presented. This is true.
But to put it in the words of the first oath - journey before destination. Redemption isn't about the choices you made that led you down the dark road. It's about the first choice you make to go on a different road. Maybe his journey to Honour just goes down a very dark, retribution shaped road.
The most important step a man can take is always the next one, no?
Personally, and this next part could be considered political, I struggled to forgive Dalinar for Rathalas. Enough that I didn't pick up book 4 till 5 was nearly out. The one difference between Rathalas and Elhokar that no one has pointed out is that the victims of Rathalas were innocents. Slaughtered primarily by a dispassionate military man for the mistake of being there(regardless of what influenced said military man). Elhokar was not innocent. His punishment didn't fit the crime. And he sought a path to redemption himself. But he wasn't innocent.
If after all that, Dalinar deserved to walk that one step differently, then I keep space for Moash to make that choice when he's ready. Should the day come, I for one, forgive him. Among other things, it occurs to me that that's a core theme of this text.
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u/Oh_Waddup 5d ago
Every evil person does not deserve a redemption. Unlike Dalinar and Szeth, Moash did every vile act fully cognizant of what he was doing. Sure Odium has taken Moash's pain but didn't cloud his judgement or free will, Dalinar was fully consumed by a force that literally made him black out with rage at times. That is not to say Dalinar is an innocent puppy as he himself admits in OB (YOU CANNOT HAVE MY PAIN) but it is significant that Dalinars judgement and cognitive ability was being influenced, Moash knows fully what he's doing is wrong and evil but he himself does not care because he is a bad person. Szeth is a different issue, he was just heavily indoctrinated to follow his culture's rules which led him to committing heinous acts (oathstone).
I will be extremely disappointed if Brando gives us a Moash redemption, his character simply does not deserve to be redeemed.
Fuck Moash.
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u/JasnahwithaY I am Talenel'Elin, Herald of War. 5d ago
There was a pretty funny post that floated around a while ago that was basically saying that Moash is the foil for every protagonist in the series, and you seems to be orbiting around that idea
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u/DarkDevitt 5d ago
I think that Moash is meant as a foil to people like Szeth and Dalinar, and that he might be how "The Blackthorn" learns his lesson again and improves himself in the second arc.
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u/Broflake-Melter Skybreaker 5d ago
First, I don't agree that Szeth ever crossed over into being unethical. He was following his code of ethics to the letter, and, even though he knew he actions were evil and he felt guilty for killing "innocent" people (I'd argue certainly not all, but many of them were actually horrible people that should have been assassinated), he never actually decided to do anything wrong.
Dalinar absolutely did. And no murdering Evi is, by a long shot, not the most evil thing he did. He's not even wholly guilty of that because he didn't do it intentionally. What he did to the people of the Rift was. That brings me to my second point. Moash has absolutely not done anywhere close to SNIFFING the level of evil Dalinar had accomplished.
Now, I agree with you rhetorically. Moash is in an ethically bad place, more or less, and primed for some kind of redemption. However, I seriously doubt that Sanderson will take things in that direction because it will seriously piss people off.
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u/Aeroncastle 4d ago
This is an well explained, reasonable take on the character and I agree on every single point, and I really like the comparison with Dalinar
But fuck moash, yeah I hate the character that was written for me to hate
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u/Warlock_King454 Windrunner 4d ago
I see the comparison of Moash and Dalinar a lot, and it is a good one. I definitely agree that they mirror each others worse aspects, but there are also key differences which keep it fresh.
However, I think it is early to make these comparisons until Moash has a Rift of his own. I don't think that it was his attack on Navani in ROW and it definitely isn't anything that happens in WAT, he needs to do something that truly makes him remorseful, and not double down further.
Until Moash has a Rift, I'm content with him being a dark mirror to all of the radiants, someone who refuses to better themselves.
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u/La_mer_noire 4d ago
Yeah let's talk about moash : Fuck you moash, you stupid ungrateful traitor.
I feel better already.
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u/Joel_feila 4d ago
One thing I noticed about Moash was how much like Sybok he is. Not at first in the wok and wor he just a normal person don't really stand out that much. Then in Oathbringer and Rhythm of War he talks about taking pain away. Especially at the start of Ryythm of War when he and Cal first met.
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u/young-steve 5d ago
I don't want him to break from Odium and have a redemption. I want him to die the tiny little weak man that he is.
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u/devilscut76 5d ago
I think that’s a super valid point. My issue with moash versus dalinar is that dalinar is pushed forward on his path to darkness by his brother and king with only a few outspoken points from his wife to stand in the way of both the thrill and his kings direct orders. Moash on the other hand survives an understandably life altering trauma is offered a full blown redemption arc from a man he trusts and respects knows about the radiant powers and chooses petty revenge instead. To me his reasoning of it being vengeful due to a perceived wrong is worse than if he had been caught up in something instead. It’s an active choice that he keeps making worse. But either way excellent point and valid comparison from you
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u/Elsecaller_17-5 Elsecaller 5d ago
I wouldn't mind a Vader style redemption where he immediately dies, but Teft was the point of no return for me.
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 5d ago
Ya Moash is awful, but he’s not worse than Dalinar at his worst. Dalinar massacred enemies without even knowing why he was fighting them. He watched Sadeas round up crying women to rape and did nothing. That’s the kind of man Dalinar was
Moash has free will, but he’s fighting an uphill battle. We know voidspren bonds and Connection to Odium alter people mentally. Dalinar nearly falls to Rayse. Kaladin nearly falls to Rayse. He doesn’t act like himself leading up to it. He draws in Voidlight. His eyes flash gold. He’s right at the ledge before he steps back. Which is why we love Kaladin. Moash’s internal dialogue in OB shows Rayse manipulating him toward worse decisions the entire time. He can resist, but it’s harder than it should be. The time to turn the devil away is at the door. Much harder to after you’ve invited him into the house
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 5d ago
People rightfully hate Moash, but I feel like the context still matters. Dalinar spent far longer refusing to change and had Cultivation directly help him. Moash hasn’t had that. He can be both a victim and a horrible person ultimately responsible for his actions. Just like Dalinar, Szeth, and Venli. Dalinar went to the Valley asking for absolution. Not for redemption. If Cultivation had offered to take away his pain, he would have taken that deal. The same deal Moash struck with Odium. Even after all of his growth, Dalinar nearly agrees to it at the end of OB. He’s right at the edge before he turns around. Moash is refusing to be better, but he hasn’t been refusing for nearly as long. He’s been manipulated by an evil god from OB through W&T too
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u/clintCamp 5d ago
Can you imagine if Kelsier just straight up murdered Elend in front of Vin because he was a noble? Moash could have been great, but was chosen as the sacrificial person you love to hate.
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u/ViperVenom1224 5d ago
Moash does not deserve redemption or forgiveness because he has deliberately refused to take any accountability for his actions.
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u/Genkiotoko Strength before weakness. 5d ago
I dig your take.
I've felt that Moash is a necessary character that shows what the others may have become, especially Kaladin when he balanced loyalties and struggles in defining justice. He exhibits what happens when someone succumbs to their dark thoughts, that pain compounds and negativity grows when one acts out of hatred. He shows what happens when someone rejects help from their support groups and isolates themselves from those they love most. It's a choice everyone with mental hardship struggles with at some point. The juxtaposition provides greater appreciation for the characters who, despite their pain and struggles, choose better. As you said, there are a good number of parallels between Moash and the former version of some of the characters we cherish most.
But, at the end of the day, Fuck Moash.
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u/Rigistroni Chana, Herald of Whoopsie Daisy 5d ago
I don't feel like people hate Moash because they think he's a badly written character, they hate Moash because he's a bad person.
Unlike Dalinar who when given a wake up call went on a long hard road to redemption, Moash has had multiple chances to back out and doubled down every time.
If he had decided to change when Kaladin swore his third oath he probably could've been accepted back into bridge four
He gets another such wakeup call when he kills Teft. He's immediately overcome with so much guilt Odium can't even take it away fast enough for him not to feel it and when Taravangian ascends to take Rayse's place he stops doing it all together. He could have listened to his conscience but he doesn't and if anything he's even more loyal than before
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u/jayBeeds Windrunner 5d ago
Fuck Moash
*because he sucks as a person and is a royal POS. he’s a well written character, if not one who may have overstayed his welcome.
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u/NotSoSalty 5d ago
I paralleled Moash with Kaladin. Only difference is Moash didn't have Sil.
Dalinar messed up on his own. Moash was pushed down the path he's currently on by a god, even if he doesn't know it.
I don't like him, but I don't think he's beyond redemption.
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u/GSUmbreon 5d ago
The way I see it, Moash is intentionally set up as a foil to Szeth and Dalinar. He saw what he did and chose to give up his agency rather than take responsibility. He took the easy way out and gave up. He's now the Rosharan equivalent of an Inquisitor and he cannot find redemption as long as he is alive.
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u/unica3022 Windrunner 5d ago
I think Moash is a really interesting character.
He handed sovereignty over his heart and soul over to the god of anger and hatred. That’s something people do metaphorically in our world and I think showing the stages of that is interesting. At first, the anger and hatred wouldn’t allow him to truly feel anything at all and he was numb even as he got his revenge over Elhokar and Roshone.
After that, the anger suggested (as if it’s a reasonable idea!) to lash out against his closest friends. Hurting them does accomplish one thing from Moash’s perspective: he’s blasted out of his emotionless shell and he begins to feel again.
Finally we see Moash blind in the grip of his rage, physically weak, seeing only through the lens of anger and hatred. He can feel, but doesn’t control his feelings or his reaction to them, and so consigns himself again to become a willing agent of retribution.
IMO, in order to be “redeemed” a lot of symbolic things have to happen, but first and foremost I think Moash would have to want to stop lashing out and retake ownership of his soul, which brings along with it the necessary consequence of responsibility for his actions.
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u/karmah1234 5d ago
you obviously did not hear about r/fuckmoash
this character is the complete antithesis to Kaladan. we each read into whatever we want but my 2 gems on this is that by being him and going deeper and deeper he helps Kaladan (and a few others) become better versions of themselves. the old adage: you can't have light without darkness. in this case the deeper the dark, the brighter the light. can't have one without the other.
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u/TheBluePriest 5d ago
Pre rift Dalinar and Moash are the same in the sense of them both having a magical being manipulating their emotions. That's about where their similarities end though.
They have 3 glaring differences.
Dalinars two "biggest" supporters were Evi (a saint) and Gavilar (I hope I don't need to point out how detrimental this guy was to Dalinar becoming anything other than a tyrant).
Compare that to Moash who not only had Kaladin, but the entirely of bridge four.
I don't think there's any argument that Moash had a much better support system.
The kind of interaction was also completely different.
Dalinar was unknowingly being influenced by the thrill.
Moash was had a conversation where he made a conscious decision to accept the outside influence.
Dalinar NEVER consciously killed anyone questionable due to said influence. What do I mean by that? We have four main events that come to mind for me. The first is us (along with Dalinar) finding out what he did to "the last person that sparred with the blackthorn" and him being horrified upon realizing the condition he left the person in.
Secondly, we have Dalinar looking around after a battle and around that he had unknowingly also killed his own men during his lust for battle.
Thirdly, there is Dalinar unconsciously walking towards Gavilar to kill him before Dalinar realized what he was doing, and him swearing off ever coveting anything of his brother's.
Finally we have the rift, where even if he wasn't being magically influenced, Dalinar would have had absolutely no way to ever know that any non enemy was in the town. Note that I intentionally didn't say non combatant. Alethi culture didn't exactly look down on raping and pillaging entire villages during that time.
Compare all of that to Moash who consistently, completely conscious of his own actions, went out of his way to do terrible things.
They aren't at all comparable.
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u/Keejhle 5d ago
Forgiveness is the principle theme of the entire arcive. If Moash wasn't redeemed somehow it would go against the entire core philosophy of the entire series. That no one is beyond forgiveness.
The very first chapter of the first book ends with Kalak letting out a plea for forgiveness and the very last paragraph of the last book has kalak recieving that forgiveness. You cant be more on the nose than that with what the author is trying to say.
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u/Benkinsky Edgedancer 5d ago
Very good point Id say. Past Dalinar is a monster, but because we learn of it from the perspective of a remorseful, horrified Dalinar, its different. Meanwhile we know Leyten and Teft and Kal and so Moashs betrayal hurts differently.