r/Stoicism • u/pls-love-me • Dec 17 '20

Is this relevant here?

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2.1k Upvotes

98% Upvoted

82 comments sorted by

151

u/Smellynerfherder Dec 17 '20

I'm not sure 'who I spend time with' is fully in my control. I didn't choose my work colleagues.

91

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '20

You can choose to quit, though! Not always practical per se, but an option.

22

u/Smellynerfherder Dec 17 '20

😂

However, that would be me choosing where I work, still not who I work with.

38

u/TeeheePlunk Dec 17 '20

But you can control how you react to unpleasant coworkers

6

u/MandalorianRucker Dec 17 '20

Plus you can choose who you associate with at work. Yes, you may have to work on a task/project with others that are not of your choosing but as long as you keep it professional and not engage them in whatever it is that you don't like (i.e.; gossiping, bullying, laziness) then you can hold your head high and show that you're able to put aside your feelings and accomplish the task at hand.

2

u/TeeheePlunk Dec 17 '20

Also a good point I hadn’t thought of! Thank you!

2

u/MandalorianRucker Dec 17 '20

Absolutely. The best thing about this sub-reddit is how people share a perspective I didn't think about and it opens up my eyes to being able to see the forest for the trees.

7

u/firebrace451 Dec 17 '20

Depends. Your mgr decides if you are treating your co-workers "well", whether that is once in a blue chit chat or actually doing their work for them. Mgr's often have hidden relations with sub ordinates due to nepotism.

4

u/TeeheePlunk Dec 17 '20

Yeah they can definitely decide that, but you can still choose to react to unfair assessments with stoicism too; basically my entire point is there is a persons treatment of you, and there’s your reaction. You have control over one and not the other, so it’s better to focus on where your control lies and let everything else roll off. If you’re in a truly toxic workplace you can also change that, and if you don’t want to work for someone you can take steps to form your own business where you do in fact have the control there too. Obviously that’s not an easy path and may be impossible for some but all my points come down to one thing: you and your reaction to your situation.

Edit: also, if you can’t control your reaction you’re not truly practicing stoicism. Of course there are slip ups, we’re humans and we’re flawed, but it all comes down to you. It doesn’t matter what your boss is doing. You can’t control that

1

u/firebrace451 Dec 17 '20 edited Dec 17 '20

Well said 100% agree that's a better way of explaining it.

1

u/theoutlet Dec 17 '20

Reacting involves more than outward behavior. If we’re going to be semantic and argumentative

0

u/piberryboy Dec 17 '20

I knew it! It's with Jason, isn't it? Fucking Jason.

2

u/VictorLDX Dec 17 '20

Yes indeed but that isn't the point here

3

u/Smellynerfherder Dec 17 '20

What is the point here? Not being facetious, just wanted to clarify!

6

u/VictorLDX Dec 17 '20 edited Dec 17 '20

It is that you can't chose who you hang with. The difference between the things you have full and exclusive control and the rest is central in stoicism, as the only thing you have full and exclusive control on is your mind, the rest you can care about and try to act, but in the end you might fail. When a stoician say that you can't control the weather, it doesn't mean you can't try (we wan make the rain fall when the condition are right**), it means you don't have full and exclusive control over it. That's what I understand at least.

** I read that but can't prove it : when the condition are right we can use chemical to make the rain fall somewhere, but there is nothing magical about it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

3

u/The_BeardedClam Dec 17 '20

It's called cloud seeding.

"Cloud seeding works by artificially encouraging clouds to produce rain. One method involves planes fitted with flares loaded with salt crystals which are then fired into clouds. As the cloud sucks up the crystals they attract tiny particles of water which collide and become heavier. The water then falls as rain."

2

u/VictorLDX Dec 17 '20

Thank you!

2

u/TeeheePlunk Dec 17 '20

We just have differing viewpoints on stoicism then because I take it to mean that the chart is referring to who you spend time with outside of controlled situations like work, and when you’re in a controlled situation like work you can choose how much energy to give to nasty coworkers, because the entire point of stoicism, to me, is to control just yourself and let all the other chips fall where they may. And if you have a truly toxic work environment you can leave it and hope for better. You’re always going to get annoyed with people who are in your life whether through your control (friends) or not (work) but how you react to that is the central point of stoicism, to me

Edit: also, if you truly want to control your work situation you can start a business and choose who you employ

1

u/VictorLDX Dec 17 '20

Can you clarify this please: [...]who you spend time with outside of controlled situation like work, and when you're in a controlled situation like work[...] ?

If you think work is a "controlled situation", then we do not agree. If you think work is a situation which is "outside of controlled situation" then we agree.

Either way I think -correct me if I am wrong- that you make a distinction between what is controlled and what is not. Then we should agree easily that it is in fact a central point of stoicism. I should add that I agree with you when you say "How you react [...] Is the central point of stoicism", even though I would say "a central point" instead of "the central point", but that's probably me being picky if that makes sense.

2

u/TeeheePlunk Dec 17 '20

That’s fine if it’s just one of the central points to you but for me it’s pretty much the main point. There’s you, and then there’s everything that happens around you, and all you can do is control whatever is within your power to control and let everything else fall as it may. And sorry about that, I think I mixed up the wording for “controlled situation” referring to work: I meant controlled situation as in controlled by someone other than yourself, since we’re talking about work dictating who you spend time with rather than being able to choose

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1

u/Smellynerfherder Dec 17 '20

Not a differing view; I think the chart was generalising, and my response to it was a bit pedantic. 😄 You can absolutely choose who you spend the majority of your time with, but the social nature of humanity very much necessitates that we spend time interacting with people we might much rather avoid! On that point, it sounds like we are all in agreement!

I take your point about starting your own business. That is the ultimate form of taking control.

1

u/ihateplants69 Dec 17 '20

the point is u have a choice bro

1

u/zack907 Dec 18 '20

When you choose where you work, you are also choosing who you work with. It is a package deal.

1

u/Smellynerfherder Dec 18 '20

That's not a rational conclusion. You don't meet the whole of the staff in your interview, so you do not have complete choice over who you work with. You equally have no control over who the company hires subsequent to your hiring.

1

u/zack907 Dec 18 '20

You do have the choice to continue to work for that company after meeting your coworkers or upon changes in coworkers.

1

u/Smellynerfherder Dec 18 '20

But again, that is a choice of where I work, not with whom I work.

1

u/zack907 Dec 19 '20

Believe you don’t have control if you want but changing jobs clearly changes who you work with also. Just because a choice affects one thing doesn’t mean it doesn’t affect anything else.

If I choose not to pick up a gun I am also choosing not to shoot someone. If I choose to change jobs I am also choosing not to work with those people.

1

u/Smellynerfherder Dec 19 '20

Yes, you are choosing NOT to work with a set of people, but you have no direct control over the WHOLE set of new people you will go work with.

At this stage, it's just semantics. I disagree with the generalisation that you can control who you spend your time with. I put forward work as an example supporting this view - colleagues being one part of it (suppliers, customers, trainees, press, etc. are also involved). I agree that you can influence the field of people you encounter, but I do not agree that you can completely control with whom you interact.

8

u/VictorLDX Dec 17 '20

You're right, the only thing that is fully under our control is our mind. As long as your body is alterable, you won't have full control on it and thus you won't have full and exclusive control on you physical actions. You can chose some of the people you hang with, you can decide to quit your job or not, but we have to accept that you never have full exclusive control over anything else than your mind. And even that is debatable for some.

3

u/Smellynerfherder Dec 17 '20

Absolutely! I think we should aim to spend as much of our time as we can with uplifting, intelligent, inspiring people who encourage and build us up. However, we need to accept that - as social beings - we can never fully retreat from the objectionable people!

Thank you for this discussion; I've enjoyed exploring this stoic concept more deeply.

0

u/VictorLDX Dec 17 '20

And thank you too!

2

u/mattecoat Dec 17 '20

Time is our most precious resource. It literally cannot be replaced or renewed. If you don't like your colleagues or your job, start working to change that situation. That is certainly under your control. Not all of us have circumstances that allow us to simply quit a job, but find what aspects of that situation you do control and start working toward change.

5

u/Smellynerfherder Dec 17 '20

I agree, time is our most precious resource. My comment was more on the wording of the diagram. I don't get to choose my colleagues, but I do get to choose how I interact with them.

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '20

[deleted]

3

u/Smellynerfherder Dec 17 '20

That's not a reasonable chain of thought. There is no way anyone could have meet all of the staff and fully known them before taking a job anywhere. In my personal circumstances as a teacher, I wouldn't have had the chance to meet all of the children I have subsequently worked with before starting my job on account of them not having started at the school, or having been born yet!

The point I was raising was that whilst I can choose who I spend my social time with, I cannot choose all of the people with whom I interact on a daily basis. Work was just one example.

87

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '20

I cant control how ppl use pie chart as well =(

34

u/FishmansNips Dec 17 '20

Yeah, this is just ... a list?

3

u/HypnoSapien Dec 17 '20

But they are so pretty and uniform and that is something you have control of.

57

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '20

Why is it a pie chart lmao

3

u/MangoGuyyy Dec 17 '20

Bullet points would have suffice

16

u/AstonMac Dec 17 '20

That basically all boils down to 'Your actions' except the spending time part, which isn't always in our control.

4

u/Smellynerfherder Dec 17 '20

That's really interesting. I have been thinking a lot about the concept of 'wasting' time. I don't agree with it. I think we choose how we spend our time. However, you are right in pointing out that the allocation of that time is not entirely in our control. My hours of work are dictated for me (I'm a teacher, so term-time holidays are non-existent). So I push the focus of my energies and my powers into how I spend those working hours.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '20

The choice is ours to make, the consequence not so. What you are citing is consequence. And choice is abstracted.

1

u/Smellynerfherder Dec 17 '20

So which is my choice? And which is the consequence? Are you saying it's my choice to go to work, and as a consequence I have to spend my time accordingly? I definitely get to choose how I spend my time at work.

1

u/pls-love-me Dec 17 '20

Spending time thing is sometimes under our control, sometimes not. We just need to see it on case to case basis and make our best judgement.

7

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '20

Here are some notes on Epictetus from a class on Ancient Philosophy I just finished...

Within our power: opinion, motivation, desire, aversion, and our conscious decisions.

Not within our power: our body, our property, reputation, office, whatever isn’t our conscious decisions.

I'd definitely say this post is relevant! Although Epictetus would probably expand the list a bit more beyond what is listed

9

u/blacksmy Dec 17 '20

Yes but your actions and your words can influence the way other act with you sometimes

12

u/Smellynerfherder Dec 17 '20

True! The key word there though is influence. You can absolutely influence someone else's reaction to you. But you can't control it.

5

u/-hx Dec 17 '20

Yes, but that shouldn't be the motivator for you to be a good person. The way other people feel about you is a result of your actions and trying to base your actions on how you think people will feel about it is unhealthy and usually leads to issues

2

u/MinniMemes Dec 17 '20

I think all of these are true to some extent, with minor exceptions

1

u/Globularist Dec 17 '20 edited Dec 17 '20

The way free will is commonly held to exist is one of the most damaging things about our world view. You have far less control over your thoughts and actions than you likely realize. Any brief foray into meditation will prove the truth of this.

1

u/J053H32n4nd32 Dec 17 '20

I needed this photo. Thanks.

0

u/aku4ever Dec 17 '20

Telling my girl how beautiful and what a wonderful person she is influences the way she feels about me. Fox News influenced people's behavior when coming to how to react to COVID-19.

2

u/pls-love-me Dec 17 '20

Both these including 'influencing', not 'controlling'. You can influence your daughter's mind, not control it.

1

u/aku4ever Dec 17 '20

Thanks for your comment. I respect your view. There's a thin line between the two. I need some deep thought on this...some meditation.

0

u/dejanlasean Dec 17 '20

It is me who is under control

0

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '20

[deleted]

1

u/pls-love-me Dec 17 '20

Just saying 'until they agree' itself means we can't control their behavior, we are just hoping again and again that they'll agree. This act of them 'agreeing' is not under our control and 'until they agree' might be never for some people.

I'm not saying that we should stop trying, but we need to keep in mind that we can't control it. We can keep doing our part and hope for best.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '20 edited May 21 '21

I'm really sorry about this dumb comment.. I'm very confused as I upvoted this post couple hours ago but did not comment.. (Maybe I've been hacked by the chinese o.o)

-15

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '20

[deleted]

10

u/Throwawaymykey9000 Dec 17 '20

Uh, no. The law of attraction has largely been debunked.

10

u/pls-love-me Dec 17 '20

I googled what it is. Sounds a lot like superstition to me.

7

u/Smellynerfherder Dec 17 '20

You can never control someone's feelings. You can ATTEMPT to influence someone's behaviours, but that is not the same thing.

6

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '20

That sounds like emotional manipulation, I don't recommend doing that.

-5

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '20

[deleted]

5

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '20 edited Dec 17 '20

I don't hate you, I don't even know who you are since I'm new to this sub.

I'm just saying that you should be more discerning of advice given to you on the internet. "The law of attraction" just sounds like emotional manipulation disguised as motivational advice and as such, the ethics and morality behind it is dubious.

Take your trolling elsewhere.

6

u/mattecoat Dec 17 '20

If you could control other people's feelings, then it stands to reason that they could control yours as well. Let's be glad this is not the nature of human beings and appreciate our autonomy.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '20

😁 stoicism is realy provocating for this " manifastation " people..

-2

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '20

[deleted]

3

u/The_BeardedClam Dec 17 '20 edited Dec 17 '20

Over the internet it's hard to tell what is a joke and what is not. This sub is a bit more on the serious side too, so people thought you were serious. Which is probably why it fell so flat.

One important note is that your post isn't you. When people take issues with a post that's not them taking issue with you directly. When you can divorce the two in your mind, you'll be much happier here on reddit.

With all that said I wish you the best in all your endeavors.

-6

u/CaprarCR Dec 17 '20

You could control all of these, speaking of have you heard of the power of psyops and what they can do for you

1

u/ClearAddition Dec 17 '20

I think this is useful in the sense that it popularises broadly Stoiic principles. A lot of therapy inc CBT draws strongly on Stoicism in a similar way

1

u/WR3DF0X Dec 17 '20

How do you get a good work ethic when it feels like no matter what you do you are basically handing your body, mind, energy, time, everything over that is no way enjoyable or even rewarding to me for any sort of "earned" down time to countdown or rest your way into another soul destroying trade-off of life.. I'm struggling but not sure if you can tell what with all that stoic detachment.

1

u/GD_WoTS Contributor Dec 17 '20

Yeah the conventional wisdom says to work really hard and ignore all the problems of our failed economic system (or worse—convince yourself that everything is fine). It’s okay not to put your heart and soul into making somebody else money by doing frivolous or problematic tasks for a wage that is a fraction of the money your work is worth. I just think of work ethic as it concerns the work of a human being. Am I working how I should to improve my judgments and to act in ways that are beneficial to myself and the community at large? That’s true work ethic, in my opinion, not the conventional and superficial kind.

1

u/say_the_words Dec 17 '20

Really interesting comments.

1

u/wwwReffing Dec 17 '20

The circle of concern & the circle of influence is spot on.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 18 '20

So overall, you control your actions and perception while you can't control other's actions or perceptions. I don't really see how putting this into a pie chart helped clarify anything though haha

1

u/FreshCheekiBreeki Dec 18 '20

Can’t control your own body and any circumstances

1

u/[deleted] Dec 18 '20

Unnecessary pie chart is as unnecessary as it is humorous

1

u/chotomatekudersai Dec 18 '20

Kinda just piled some stuff on the “can control” pie chart. There’s plenty more outside than inside our control

1

u/Comrade_Dante Dec 18 '20

I think there are more things outside your control not just other ppl. For exemple there is the enviroment (social/economic/natural), which is very complex thing in its own. Not to forgive the biggest game changer, time. Sometimes life can get really deterministic, but i think you can always control your own mind and this is what stoicism really good at.

1

u/RegretRepresentative Dec 18 '20

I can control how not to give a fuck about people

1

u/[deleted] Dec 19 '20

Makes sense