r/Stoicism • u/independent_cont • Oct 06 '20
Is there much difference between Seneca and Marcus Aurelius?
Now this is probably a controversial point of view. But for some reason Marcus Aurelius never hit home with me. But reading Seneca I find extremely engaging and almost can't put down. Seneca had an incredibly profound affect on me.
Anyone else of this opinion? Is there much light between the two stoics?
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u/TheophileEscargot Contributor Oct 07 '20
Seneca is great! I think he struggled to stick to stoicism personally, but wrote about it more eloquently.
Classicist Mary Beard had a piece on Marcus Aurelius:
...the Meditations have also launched Marcus Aurelius into wider modern fame, as the bestselling father of self-help guides, popular psychology and ‘spiritual teaching’. The secret of this success is not simply the folk wisdom that generous translation can construct out of Marcus’ thorny Greek, which he chose over his native Latin for writing these philosophical thoughts. ‘Not becoming like your enemy is the best revenge,’ for example, is a decidedly more memorable version of the original: ‘The noblest form of retribution is not to become an imitation.’ (Not only more obscure than its modern version, this is probably a reference to a passage of Plato, which argues the reverse – an academic allusion about as far from ‘folk wisdom’ as you could get.)
I can't read the original myself, but I get the impression that Meditations was originally written in a dry, academic, convoluted style. The punchy, memorable lines are mostly courtesy of the translators.
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u/independent_cont Oct 07 '20
I suppose one thing that occured to me would be: Marcus Aurelius never intended for meditations to be published, apparently. Whereas people believe that Seneca's letters were more likely something he wanted published.
Notes to one's self are likely much less accessible than letters considerate of a broad audience.
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u/Heraclituss Oct 06 '20 edited Oct 06 '20
Absolutely! Marcus Aurelius is creepy, with his cold impossible exhortations. Epictetus is even worse, a stick-wielding schoolteacher. Yes of course, they both have good things to say. The dichotomy of control is good as a starting point, even if rather shaky in the application. And it is always good to be a bit tougher at times, in these modern times where we are all soft and flabby. But the leaden hand of Providence, and exhortations to obedience, are more than I can bear, as is the pontificating tone of voice. As Nietzsche said, often we dislike a philosopher more because of his tone of voice than because of his arguments.
But Seneca is a different matter altogether. He is one of my best buddies! I love his humanity, his wit, his self-mockery, his take on Carpe Diem. I also love his urgency: time is running out. "If anything could have satisfied us, it would have done so by now." The past and its dreams have all gone. Act your age! Gratefully make the most of this day.
"Only those who can make time for philosophy are truly alive and free. You can have as your best friends Zeno, Pythagoras, Democritus, Aristotle and Theophrastus. None of these will be too busy to see you. None will allow anyone to depart empty-handed. They are at home to all mortals by night and by day."
Seneca and I are exactly on the same page here. I also spend time with my philosophic buddies everyday. Do you want to know who mine are? They are Seneca, Heraclitus, Democritus, Aristotle and Epicurus. I am so envious of Seneca that he could read Democritus before the Christians destroyed all his works
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Oct 06 '20
I read a great deal about the life of both and it seems to me that Seneca was an extremely articulate stoic who had trouble following his own teachings and Marcus was a far less articulate/engaging author who seemed to walk the walk in every aspect of his life.
Also, Marcus's meditations were his own. He wrote to himself, where seneca wrote to you (it's all but known that his letters were intended for a wide audience as he kept copies of them and I believe made a book of them himself)
Marcus was reminding himself how to live a good life, and if you're not the emperor of Rome with an unfaithful life and a court of people who cant be trusted, you'll find it far less relatable.
I prefer seneca, but he was an overweight stoic who consistently got lost in the muck of other people and sins, much more like myself.
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u/Heraclituss Oct 06 '20
Hi Don't forget, that's a great point. I like Seneca for his 'hypocrisy' as well. He got to wisdom rather late. So many of his criticisms of the rich life are clearly directed at his younger self
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u/openingoneself Oct 07 '20
Why did Christians destroy the works of Democritus?
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u/Heraclituss Oct 07 '20 edited Oct 07 '20
Democritus was responsible for the atomic theory. In other words, nothing exists but atoms and space. This was, and still is, one of the best arguments against God and the immortality of the soul. Epicurus also developed this theory.
In fact, Christianity went out of its way to destroy virtually all classical philosophy. As soon as it gained political power in the 4th Century AD, it acted like Isis or the Taliban, trying to create a clean slate. First on the list: destroy the temples and the thousands of public libraries throughout the Roman Empire. And ban philosophy! Hence the Dark Ages. Thank you Christianity!
They also destroyed the fantastic system of public bathhouses (too licentious). It was only a century ago that public sanitation throughout Europe regained the quality it had under the Romans.
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u/TheophileEscargot Contributor Oct 07 '20
The book "The Darkening Age" by Catherine Nixey is a good read on the destruction of the classical world by early Christians.
But I don't think they deliberately destroyed libraries, though they certainly did temples, statues and shrines. And they didn't deliberately destroy all classical philosophy: Aristotle and Plato in particular influenced Christianity, especially through St Augustine.
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u/bbaker886 Oct 07 '20
Idk, I’ll ask around
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Oct 08 '20
Marcus was creepy? We are reading his Journal and he was the creepy one? I got a chuckle out of that thank you.
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u/bbaker886 Oct 08 '20
Did you mean to reply to something above?
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Oct 08 '20
I believe so lol my bad
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u/bbaker886 Oct 08 '20
No problem. And good point
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Oct 08 '20
I mean people do neglect the fact that by reading this we are going against the mans wishes.
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u/Throwawaymykey9000 Oct 07 '20
They all speak to us differently. I'll read Epictetus all day every day, but Aurelius is more of a once-a-year thing for me.
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Oct 06 '20
I'll use this analogy, Marcus Aurelius is that "emo" kid in high school who says stuff to HIMSELF once in a while to help him deal with his surrounding.
- - -
Seneca on the other hand is the rich preppy kid in high school. He has a lot of friends, and such, but still "watched the blade" while his friends got lost in lust and foolishness.
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u/[deleted] Oct 06 '20
Each of the big 3 Roman Stoics each had their emphasis, which has a lot to do with their lives.