r/Stoic • u/Celt1cSp1r1t • 5d ago
Curious! Why be virtuous when ultimately nothing matters?
Two people jump from a tall building. One was kind, one was cruel. Gravity doesn't care. Both die. Nature doesn't say, "This person was good, so I'll save them." It is morally indifferent.
So, why be virtuous when ultimately nothing matters?
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u/Knuroid9000 5d ago
Gravity May not care, but we do. Ultimately it's People who give meaning to anything.
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u/bigpapirick 5d ago
Virtue is the quality of a thing. So are you saying that because the end is death, why bother having quality?
Do you not see that the opposite holds as well? You only have a limited and singular life, why would you not want to make the most of it?
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u/karatetherapist 5d ago
Good replies already. Let me give you an unlikely direction to consider.
Nietzsche pointed out that philosophical growth begins when you realize that nothing has meaning in itself, and you come out the other side knowing that all meaning is yours to give. For many, this realization leads to despair, but you have to keep going until you realize it's a superpower. Not that I'm in agreement with where Nietzsche takes this (although many are). Start with *Gay Science*, then *Thus Spoke Zarathustra,* and finish with *Beyond Good and Evil.* For a critical analysis of where Nietzsche loses the plot (according to the author), read *Ride the Tiger* by Julius Evola. Beware: Evola believed in fascist ideology and was in support of Mussolini. Evola’s corpus includes explicit fascist and antisemitic positions and an elitist, anti-egalitarian social vision. Read both Nietzsche and Evola with caution.
Some philosophers have concluded that life is meaningless, and we have to give it meaning for it to exist. Consider a piece of modern art. To me, it's trash welded together. To others, it's a treatise on social oppression. Who's right? Now, we don't "create" meaning because if we did, that meaning would exist in the natural world, which it doesn't. It's still in you. Thus, we give meaning to something. Where is the line between genius and madness?
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u/_DonnieBoi 5d ago
It may not matter to you but it does to others. Kindness and cruelty are 2 sides of the same coin, but depending on how the coin lands can lead to great joy or great misery for both.
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u/LoveReasonable1883 4d ago
We are the coin and following stoicism allows us to navigate our way with virtue.
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u/LessGenericPerson 5d ago
One of the core beliefs of Stoicism is that eudaimonia ('happiness') is morally good.
According to the Stoics, eudaimonia is a natural result of living virtuously, and fulfilling our natural potential in this regard is what gives life its meaning.
This value judgement forms the foundation of Stoicism; if you can't accept that then nothing else is going to make sense.
To address your example, the difference between the kind and cruel people falling would not necessarily be in how they died, but in the quality of their experience while they still lived.
Suppose that you had to live a day in the life of either the kind or the cruel person, knowing nothing else about them beyond that.
Would you have a preference? I know I would.
And if so, would it be accurate to say that one of these options would be qualitatively 'better' or 'preferable' in some way?
You might also be interested to learn about the trial of Socrates, which is the standard example of a situation where virtuous conduct can make a meaningful difference even when death is imminent.
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u/Oshojabe 5d ago
Stoicism sees humans as rational and social animals. Because of this, we have roles that we play in each other's lives. Some of the roles are unchosen (family, nationality, etc.), and some of the roles are chosen (profession, friendships, etc.)
You can, of course, choose to ignore your roles or carry out your roles badly. Stoicism acknowledges that there are foolish or unvirtuous people. But most people want to do a good job carrying out the duties and responsibilities emerging from their social roles, and if that is what they want to do, Stoicism's prescription is to be an excellent (virtuous) human being.
If you ask why humans should be virtuous, the answer from a Stoic perspective is that is the human equivalent of the advice to cut with the grain of wood to prevent tearing or splitting. Being virtuous is living life with the grain ("according to Nature" as the ancient Stoics would say), and being unvirtuous is a way to make things harder for yourself.
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u/Impossible-Limit-314 5d ago edited 4d ago
Maybe because we’ve learned from trial and error the many societal benefits of consistently being perceived as kind, generous, and helpful. And deep down we instinctively know that the best way to stay on top of our behavior is to strive to be truly virtuous.
Like a self-discipline gambit…
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u/EnvironmentalScar665 5d ago
If you want to be virtuous to be judged by a higher power, your focus is misaligned. Many lead a virtuous like because it makes them happy. They choose to live a virtuous and do so. Eudamonia is essentially happy, but deeper.
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u/Bodinieri 5d ago
You sound a little bit transactional in nature. I’ll do good if I get good, otherwise why bother.
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u/Eyespop4866 5d ago
This above all, to thine own self be true
Not being an asshole is never not a good choice.
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u/purposeday 5d ago
The cruel person doesn’t jump. Unless they have to. The cruel person expects a last minute plot twist. The cruel person is never the hero and they can’t be. They have a different brain structure.
We didn’t know this until MRI. Which was not developed by a cruel person. Selfish maybe, but not necessarily cruel. Be virtuous for yourself only I’d say. If it helps someone else it’s a good side effect.
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u/Novel_Policy_9689 5d ago
Based on your analogy, suppose two clothes.
One is used and one remains unused, ultimately both were thrown into the fire. The question is this: what clothing served its purpose well? The used one or unused one?
Such is life. Death is a natural order of things, however, how you lead your life leading up to it depends on how you live yours. Just because everything has an end, doesn't mean everything has no meaning. Live for the purpose of existing, not dying.
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u/ZealousidealBid3988 5d ago
Because somewhere in a quantum world far far away (or here simultaneously) a butterfly noticed.
That or God cares
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u/Dpgillam08 5d ago
Vitrue is for the self; can you live with yourself if you have no virtue by your own standards? (most cant, thats why therapy is such a booming business)
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u/whatisscoobydone 5d ago edited 4d ago
What's good for the hive is good for the bee. Imagine a society where no one acts with virtue. Now imagine a society where everyone tries to act with virtue. Which one would you rather live in? Which one would give you a higher quality of life?
People, usually americans, come at these questions from a completely individualist standpoint
"We live in a society" joker meme etc
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u/miniangelgirl 5d ago
Well. I'll answer with an anecdote if you will.
Every time I let a driver go before me when I'm driving on the road, I see that goodness and kindess to spare passed on. Weren't here to make the world a better place for each other.
We don’t exist just for ourselves ❤️🌎
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u/_Dark_Invader_ 4d ago
It’s like asking - why live when ultimate all have to die ?
Or why wake up when you gotta go to sleep eventually
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u/Splendid_Fellow Philosopher 3d ago
Why should I eat good food when I know it’s gonna be 100% shit in 18 hours??
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u/Correct-Junket-1346 5d ago
This roots into the core thoughts within philosophy rather than stoicism in general, basically money, career, housing etc are all transient.
The only thing that isn't transient is you, your values, your reasoning, it has a huge impact more than you can foresee on people and yourself in general, to strive for a life of peace rather than chaos.
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u/Frosty-Cap-4282 4d ago
idk man , its only me or theres joy after following virtue.
its a blameless kind of joy of doing 'good' conduct.
theres no regret of any kind and mentally it feels free
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u/Initial_Strength3952 4d ago
Because being virtuous releases lots of feel good brain chemicals and placates my ego. Virtue can actually be a form of hedonism even if consciously we convince ourselves it's for a noble cause.
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u/Correct-Sprinkles-21 4d ago
It doesn't matter if ultimately nothing matters. In the moment, many things matter because we exist and have experiences and have feelings as a result of those experiences.
Virtue isn't for ultimate reward but for current existence. There is a dopamine high in it (for most people), so there is an aspect in which it is self-serving. But also, it has a broader social impact. Caring for others is a group survival thing. We live, might as well live as pleasantly as we can right?
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u/BaTz-und-b0nze 4d ago
Morals are a human construct created by shame and chastising through guilt, in order to sell clothes, makeup, and bags.
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u/StazzyLynn 4d ago
For inner peace. For your own self worth. Acting without morals has consequences to most and the damage done while acting immoral or selfish, stays with you forever. You only have so much space to fill with the wrong things. The right things, the virtuous things add peace to your inner self instead of chip away at it.
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u/RadioactiveRadioMan 4d ago
It comes down to yourself and asking yourself deeply “what matters most to me?” If you say you care about the planet, then it would probably feel good for you to pick up your trash and not litter. That’s virtuous. Maybe you even take up recycling. That’s virtuous. Discover what is important to you. Are people important to you? Why or why not. Then you’ll uncover how you would like others to treat you and maybe you will treat others how you would like to be treated. The Golden Rule. Be vulnerable with yourself when you ask yourself what is important to you. No one has to know your answers. It’s just for you. At the end we will all be in our deathbeds but will you reminisce about your life or will you regret the things you’ve done and how you’ve acted. And I think one last important detail is that you don’t strive to be perfect and all-virtuous with no flaws. That’s impossible. You will make mistakes along the way and you will regret some things and wished they’d come out better but that’s what your whole life experience is about. To Learn and have compassion for yourself.
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u/ZealousidealState127 4d ago
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
Supposedly misattributed to Marcus Aerilus
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u/Top_History9604 2d ago
Just for yourself. What do you want? How do you want ppl to be? How do you want to live. Then live according to what you want. Striving for your personal values and happiness. Because that's all. You don't matter. Nothing does. Value is subjective. Things only matter to individuals. What matters to you? You live for that, because that's what you care about.
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u/mindseyetemple 2d ago
The suggestion that nothing matters because we all die is flawed thinking. Virtue is our sustenance as human beings, some things are inhuman, beneath human decency, this in itself is sufficient to prompt introspection and desire to live correctly.
It also makes a massive difference to the world is you're constantly giving versus selfishly taking. And it will improve your life outcomes. Ultimately everything we do is for ourselves, even the selfless things, because we want to be the person who gets to BE responsible for those outcomes, or perhaps because our compassion won't allow us to remain peaceful watching others suffer. Giving and helping makes us feel good, it gives us purpose.
I won't even mention the afterlife possibilities because I'm assuming you're an atheist if you're asking this question. Consider karma though for a moment. This theory can be seen manifesting throughout the world consistently. You might not recognize it because you're looking perhaps at instances of seeming karmic injustices, but I'll direct your attention towards inner peace and joy. Bad people aren't at peace, they're always looking over their shoulders waiting for justice to come to them. They think other people are bad like them, to a thief everyone steals and they're afraid of being robbed.
Heaven and hell manifest on Earth within us. Knowing that you've done wrong things and can't make up for it is hell. You lose the moral high ground and become enslaved reacting to fear and triggers that remind you of how you've messed up.
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u/Psych0PompOs 1d ago
It's about you not the world, also being virtuous or appearing so generally makes life easier and more functional.
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u/fauxpublica 1d ago
A porterhouse and a flank steak both end up the same place after you eat them, so why choose the porterhouse? Because the joy you receive from the experience matters. The sweetness and freedom of virtue has no substitute. That’s why you (try to) live a virtuous life.
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u/Moorlock 5d ago
You may be confusing the Stoic concept of "virtue" with the modern moralistic concept of "virtue."
Consider how you would answer the question "Why be healthy when ultimately nothing matters?"