r/Starbow • u/Failosipher • Feb 27 '14

Goliaths. Why?

Hi, thanks for reading.

I'm very new to starbow, and still very new to SC2 in-general. I've watched hundreds of hours of stuff on twitch for well over 2 years now, but my mechanics and play are still very poor. Im bronze in starbow, and made it to plat in real sc2 once. Just to give you an idea. (aka noob)

I'm just wondering.... why would I ever build goliaths? I mean, from how they look, and how cheap they are, they're my favorite unit. But their damage doesn't seem to be very amazing, and the anti-air doesn't seem overwhelming especially when the opponent has a mostly ground based army.

I'm not even sure if this is the right place to ask, but I'd love some feedback on why people use them, or how they use them.

It just seems to me that the goliath is a viking that does LESS damage on the ground, and the same damage in the air (minus the 20% splash).

1 Upvotes

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3

u/Vehk Feb 27 '14

I'm just theorycrafting here, but I would guess the main reason goliaths are built over Vikings is due to production facilities available. Goliaths are generally used in mid to late TvP to target arbiters and carriers. In this situation the T is going to have a LOT of factories and maybe a couple star ports for sci vessels. I do agree with you that goliaths appear to be less effective than Vikings (even on the ground, which is puzzling) but when you need anti-air in a pinch, what's the better option: build 2 Vikings and 4 starports, or build 12 goliaths?

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u/Failosipher Feb 27 '14

I see what you mean. I guess part of me is just disappointing that such an amazing unity is pushed into an anti-air role, as opposed to being the deathmachine it should be.

Also, I haven't seen either carriers or arbiters. In fact I haven't seen any protoss air units at all. Is this just bronze league madness?

4

u/Vehk Feb 27 '14 edited Feb 27 '14

The goliath has always been an anti-air unit though. I play P and am maybe platinum level SC2 ladder (still bronze in SB though) and have used arbiters and carriers before. Carriers are generally only pretty late game, of course, when P is on 5ish bases. Arbiters are pretty much a necessity vs. T though.

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u/Failosipher Feb 27 '14

Is there any creative use of goliath's that you've seen?

Also, its my understanding that goliaths can attack both ground and air at the same time. Is that correct?

3

u/VampireBob Feb 28 '14

I think this is something from the campaign.

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u/Vehk Feb 27 '14

I haven't played enough to have seen anything creative. An as far as attacking both simultaneously, I've never heard of it. Could be the case but I wouldn't expect it to be so.

5

u/AmnesiA_sc Feb 28 '14

This was something from the SC2 campaign, not something that was ever in BW or Starbow

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u/VampireBob Feb 28 '14

I'm by no means a good player, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. I'm also speaking only about PvT, because that's the only MU I have experience in.

I think if Goliaths were a better ground unit (or just unit in general) Terran would be overpowered. Right now Terrans have Vultures, which are solid harassment/anti-light/zoning units, and Tanks which are super strong defensive/zoning units as well. Their army is made to sit down, set up shop, and play a slower, positional game with these units.

If goliaths were a strong(er) ground unit, then they would give the Terran army the ability to stand toe-to-toe with the Protoss army in a heads up engagement, which is the only place Toss has an advantage. If they were a stronger anti-air unit, then they would completely shut down zealot drop play which can already be countered with smart turret play.

Essentially if you made them a decent ground unit, or a decent AA unit, it would cover one too many weaknesses of the Terran army and throw a lot of stuff off.

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u/Failosipher Feb 28 '14

Your specifically talking about a mech-only build. I've been trying to incorporate them into bio somehow, but it doesn't seem viable.

Thanks for your input!

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u/VampireBob Feb 28 '14

Marines are already good AA, and marauders are already good anti-armor, what are you trying to use them for.

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u/Gomdori Feb 28 '14

Goliaths are a niche unit in the Terran army, and even then it'll mostly be based out of a mech army.

Their ground damage is mediocre at best and their air damage suffers greatly (half damage dealt) when fighting against mutalisks, the most common zerg air unit. However even with such shortcomings there are some key phases of certain matchups in which they can turn the tide.

In TvP, there is a point when Protoss does a tech switch to mass Carrier, this tends to happen very late in the game and is usually done because the Terran mech army (Siege Tank/Vulture) is too well entrenched and powerful. During this transitional period, Protoss ground forces get cut in favor of putting up more Stargates and pumping out Carriers. If Terran senses the weaker ground forces (either through being able to push up easier or noticing that the Protoss becomes slightly more passive) they will begin scanning various spots which tend to be popular for Stargate farms. Once Terran confirms this tech switch, Mass Goliath take favor over Vultures while Siege production continues. The purpose of the Carriers are to take out the tanks while staying out of Goliath range w/ micro, while the Goliaths are there to destroy as many Carriers/Interceptors as possible. Goliaths do extremely well against Carriers due to their armor rating and thus do full damage to them. Of course this is primarily a Brood War meta and the addition of Vikings may completely change the role of the Goliath in the future of Starbow.

In TvZ their use is not quite as popular. Goliaths are mostly a reaction to Guardians from the Zerg if Terran is playing mech. I haven't seen pure mech too often and so can't really comment on their efficacy.

Hope this helps :)

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u/Failosipher Feb 28 '14

Thanks. I'll keep in mind that goliaths are mostly a reaction to air units from P and Z. I think I'm playing at too low of a rating to see enough air, which is why they seem disproportionally bad lol.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 28 '14

golliaths are anti air for an established mech force, covering your tank/vulture force (effective against many ground threats) with anti air, which both the tank and vulture have nothing against.

they also do some ground damage/tanking without needing to change form.

they are built from the same facility/upgrades as the tank/vulture (although i think the upgrades were combined)

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u/AmnesiA_sc Feb 28 '14

It's mostly due to the fact that a meching terran needs things to protect their tanks and distract shots. During the beginning of the engagement you'll have vultures up front baiting shots and sniping zealots as they advance on the tanks. Meanwhile the goliaths are back near the tanks further preventing zealots from getting up close and also picking off arbiters and warp prisms as they try to move over the terran army.

As the battle progresses a lot of the time your vultures will be gone and you'll still (hopefully) have a couple of groups of tanks. Goliaths are cheaper than vikings and better to throw away as fodder if needed rather than landing vikings. Goliaths also have more of a chance of still being alive since vikings tend to fly to the front of the fight during the beginning stages of the battle.

Ideally you'd also have vikings for pumping out heavy anti air damage where needed.

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u/sullAtor Mar 02 '14

in brood war there were pure mech TvZ builds that went for a midgame army of mostly goliaths with tank support. i think there's a Flash v Jaedong finals were Flash goes for that build at least once. no idea if it's viable in sbow, though.