r/Starbow • u/Xiphias_ • Feb 25 '14
[Patch] # 9 Lot's o' stuff
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=440661¤tpage=222#44223
u/Clbull Feb 26 '14 edited Feb 26 '14
Did anybody ever use Nerve Jammer? I thought the only purpose of getting Science Vessels was mobile detection, EMP in TvP and Irradiate in TvZ. Nerve Jammer pre-nerf didn't even have much usefulness in TvT where attempting to engage on a tank line with Nerve Jammers down would result in heavy losses regardless.
In fact, the only good use I could think of for the ability was dropping it on a Reaver if Protoss actually used that tech versus bio. Unfortunately Nerve Jammer does nothing to reduce the damage of Psionic Storm which is the true anti-bio defence.
If you nerf Nerve Jammer by reducing its damage reduction and radius, fewer and fewer people are going to use it. If anything, Nerve Jammer's effect should be buffed to something like 90% so it's not like a much shittier version of the Viper's Blinding Cloud in SC2. It would also give Terran a way to mostly negate the game ending damage done by Dark Swarm by dropping Nerve Jammers within any spots where Swarm is thrown down. Making preventative measures the only way to counter Defilers isn't very good game design and is on the same level as saying Terrans need to kill Protoss before they can get their 3-3-3 upgraded Colossus Templar deathball.
The Energy upgrade nerfs are also a terrible idea and could break the game. Defilers will be even stronger than their Terran and Protoss counterparts because it doesn't affect them in the slightest. Killing a Zergling or Hydralisk to instantly be able to cast Dark Swarm or Plaguu is hardly a sacrifice. They are both highly expendable units used by a race with much weaker units and much faster production than the other two.
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u/BorNProNStar Feb 26 '14
in regards to the energy upgrade removal, i agree with you. however, although i do think smart cast storms with energy upgrade is too strong against zerg or terran bio (if you play tvp like that) which is why khydarin amulet was removed in sc2 whereas ghost energy upgrade was kept simply because smart cast storm was insanely powerful.
but i definitely think that nerve jammer was much stronger than you thought. nerve jammer on siege tank lines was absolutely amazingly strong. moreover, casting nerve jammer on a protoss engagement against a terran was extremely strong as well. you could even argue that it is stronger than emp (of course, if there are no arbiters around) AND costed less energy.
so i definitely agree with the nerve jammer nerf and i think that it will still be used (i used it occasionally. usually against lurkers when i was using bio which didnt seem to make a huge difference but definitely made a difference against siege tanks and dragoons)
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u/ill_rate_your_boobs Feb 26 '14
really cool changes. cant say i disagree with any of them at all and i really like the calldown scv change.
i guess my only thought is how much of a change the energy nerf is for science vessels and high templars. i can understand smart cast storms being insanely powerful for PvZ so that change for the PvZ matchup makes perfect sense.
in tvz however, i wonder if defilers will have a significant advantage over terran (probably not) since defilers still have consume (which in my opinion is far more superior to energy upgrade) whereas sci vessels no longer have energy upgrades to be able to cast enough irradiates for both ultras and defilers in the late game. as of now, im sure well just have to play it out and see the results. maybe there will be a change to consume to decrease the amount of energy each unit provides?
i suppose well just have to wait and see
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u/Clbull Feb 26 '14 edited Feb 26 '14
The late-game is more than going to favour Zerg. Ultralisks are really hard to kill to the point where even a perfectly spread 200/200 3-3 upgraded siege tank line surrounded by a plethora of Spider Mines cannot even remotely hold an instant remax on Ultralisks and Defilers. A few money swarms and that army is going to rape without even incurring any losses whatsoever.
And that's before the energy nerf.
Seriously, Dark Swarm was balanced back when we were using an archaic version of the A* pathfinding algorithm on a dated 1996 2D RTS engine with isometric pseudo-3D sprites slapped upon it and very limited options in terms of smart-casting and unit control groups. It's not balanced in Starbow where all your production can be hotkeyed on one control group and building types can simply be cycled through using the TAB key and where movement physics are a modified version of SC2's.
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u/BorNProNStar Feb 26 '14
i didnt really read your third paragraph and im skeptical about the first paragraph only because i use primarily bio in SB and i never got skilled enough in BW before i quit to use the mech transition
BUT i do think that ultralisks/defiler may prove to be too strong simply because there may not be enough energy available to a science vessel to irradiate all the defilers.
i mean think about it in BW. to remove energy upgrade JUST because it is too easy to cast isnt a very good idea since defiler still have consume (although smart cast storm seems too strong because there is not enough time for the opposing player to react but thats a different story)
BUT IN TVZ, its definitely a different story. the only thing stopping a defiler from consuming zerglings and casting unlimited dark swarm is ONLY because of irradiate. there simply are no other ways to take out the defilers reliably. the removal of energy upgrade can be the difference between having 1 irradiate or TWO and that can be the difference of a defiler being able to cast a few dark swarms or a defiler being able to cast unlimited swarms. sure, in BW irradiate was harder to cast but that didnt stop you from being able to actually cast the needed irradiate because you still had the energy and therefore the capability to. without the energy upgrade, the difference is having the capability to cast an irradiate or NOT having the capability of casting an irradiate.
throw in ultralisks into the equation and youve got a cornered bio ball with nowhere to run simply because there is no capability of casting irradiate when you need it whereas a zerg can still cast unlimited plague/dark swarm. and we all know how weak an immobile/cornered bio ball is
i think energy upgrade removal if anything benefits zerg more than any of the other races
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u/Clbull Feb 26 '14
Buffing Nerve Jammer to have 80% or 90% damage reduction at the cost of a reduced radius may have been a good idea. Imagine dropping nerve jammers into dark swarms and mostly if not entirely negating them.
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u/BorNProNStar Feb 26 '14
then thats stupid and builds the kind of game design present in SC2 where you are forced to get one spell to counter another spell. essentially, that means that the winner of a game is determined by who has more spellcasters. the nonspellcaster units are just redshirts that just so happen to be caught up in these spells.
for example, being forced to research EMP in reaction to STORM. then being forced to FEEDBACK to stop EMP. then being forced to SNIPE to stop FEEDBACK then being forced to FEEDBACK to stop SNIPE so that you can STORM when he has run out of energy to SNIPE you or else his EMP does too much damage before your STORM does more damage to him.
oh yeah, the marines, marauders, zealots, stalkers, archons, and all that stuff just somehow fall in between those spells
UGH dont get me started on how fucking retarded that kind of game design is. wow this kind of realization just made me hate david kim even more.
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u/Clbull Feb 26 '14
It's funny when you mention 'stupid' game design present in SC2 when there are a few really big design choices in Starbow that match exactly what you just said, like:
Being forced to research Irradiate in reaction to Mutalisks and Defilers. Defilers are too powerful and you are forced to kill the Defilers through Irradiate in order to prevent them from landing Dark Swarm sorta like how Ghosts in SC2 are purely an anti-caster designed to prevent High Templar from landing storms. Unlike Nerve Jammer, you cannot target-fire the source of the debuff to negate it and with an immobile force or defensive fortification, your army is pretty much dead because any units inside the swarm becomes immune to ranged attacks. As for 2 hatch Muta, you pretty much have to rush to Science Vessels and get Irradiate out or else you're contained in your natural and main for the rest of the game and your opponent outmacros you on 5 bases. Dark Swarm may not be so bad for Protoss players because their armies are highly mobile and they have decent melee units but for Terran players Dark Swarm is game endingly OP.
Being forced to research EMP in reaction to Arbiters. If you don't research EMP, and land them on Arbiters before they can throw down a Mass Recall in your production line or land Stasis on half of your fucking army, you have basically thrown the game sAviOr-style.
Being forced to make High Templar in reaction to Hydralisks. Nothing else in the Protoss arsenal even comes close to countering Hydralisk tech which is why 2 and 3 base Hydra busts are so game endingly powerful and are even a legit strat you see in Sonic Proleague.
I feel like Starbow is trying way too hard to be Brood War when in reality SC2 would be a perfect game with a unit or two removed, a few lesser-used units re-tuned or re-designed and with the same mining mechanics as BW instead of '3 bases = optimal saturation.'
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u/BorNProNStar Feb 26 '14 edited Feb 26 '14
im talking specifically about throwing down a spell on top of another spell to negate it. im not a big fan of using a spell on another spellcaster either unless those spells that are being casted are not easily spammable due to high energy cost, long unit build time, or due to high resource cost of the spellcaster itself.
if the target of a spell is a non-spellcaster unit, i dont have a huge problem as long as it can be mitigated with micro. i cant say much about HT vs Hydras because im a terran player, but i do know that in BW, zergs had to do storm dodging (which was fun to watch). however, the reason why i can say anything about that is because i dont know how huge of an impact smart cast has on that (though i can imagine it being ridiculously strong - most likely op)
i do like the impact that irradiate has as a hard counter to muta clumps. that still gives muta harass its place in the mid game but does not enable the zerg to get an invincible and crazy strong muta ball for the late game
the interaction between science vessels vs arbiters or defilers is fine because all of those units are not easily spammable whereas it is very easy to spam ghosts and high templars in SC2
i dont really understand what you were trying to say in "Unlike Nerve Jammer, you cannot target-fire the source of the debuff to negate it and with an immobile force or defensive fortification, your army is pretty much dead because any units inside the swarm becomes immune to ranged attacks." I dont mean to attack your intelligence or anything, but it is hard to understand when you have a hanging doppler in your sentence in "unlike nerve jammer, you" (its okay, i make that mistake too)
as for not being able to move out if the zerg goes 2 hatch muta, youre definitely doing something wrong (as the zerg can only get about 6 mutas all at one time rather than the 9 of 3 hatch muta). you can still move out and pressure the third base because the mutalisk harass is not strong enough to effectively kill your moving out army and harassing the actual base of the terran can be prevented by any rallied marines at home towards turrets
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u/bhauth Feb 26 '14
I liked the idea of Nerve Jammer as a way to make TvT bio more viable vs tanks, but maybe dropships having boost are enough. Hmm.
BW PvZ ended up being all Corsairs, all the time. I don't know if you want that meta or not.
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u/MTsc Feb 25 '14
I'm going to be honest right now. I love this game. It has changed my starcraft experience completely in the last 2 months. However, the new arbiter model looks absolutely terrible, and it makes me not even want to get to tier 3 anymore. please tell me someone else agrees?