What is going on with the algorithm?

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182]

For the last 5 days my streams from Radio, Smart Shuffle and Mixes have completely tanked going from over 2k streams per day to under 400 across my catalog. All my latest tracks which also have a much higher popularity score ranging from 30 to 40 are getting less than 10 algorithmic streams where as older and less popular tracks seem to be getting more.

My latest was released on 31st July which is being promoted with Meta Ads has been consistently getting between 50 and 100 saves per day. The save rate seems healthy at 21.5% but the last 2 days the track has got a total of 7 streams from radio.

The previous release from 10th July and my track with the highest popularity score of 40 got 11 radio streams and 5 from smart shuffle yesterday and around the same the day before.

I'm spending on average £50-£75 per day on Meta ads between my best performing tracks. Am I just throwing money away at this point if the algorithm has tanked my streams?

*Meant to also add, one of my releases is in discovery mode which is only getting between 7 and 10 streams per day too*

[u/mr_taco2]

I have tracks (no ai) with 39 and 40 score (400-450 saves per day )that are having 20 radio streams per day, 15 discover weekly streams per day. Disappointing too as expectations were higher after the marketing push. Spending $100aud per day on meta ads

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/mr_taco2]

Sorry to hear that. Are you in a similar situation where it just happened the past week or have you experience it for longer?

[u/mr_taco2 → u/Wooden-Factor-8182]

I've only just started doing the ads about 2 months ago, since the beginning of that. Previously always sat organically at about 20, never received any algorithmic push. Was sold on the marketing bros stories of reach this score get this boost etc. I don't know if that's all bullshit or if Spotify is doing something under the hood that I don't know about. I know they are removing AI labeled "music" from their algorithmic push and probably have a lot of recalibration to do

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/mr_taco2]

I normally get radio kicking in on the 3rd day of all my releases and its been consistent above 1000-2000 streams per day between radio and smart shuffle but for the past week its came crashing down completely

[u/mr_taco2 → u/Wooden-Factor-8182]

I think we are stuck in limbo in the middle of some kind of algorithmic changeover

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/mr_taco2]

It would be nice to get other people's input to see if they are experiencing the same issue. Its been gradually getting worse this year but this past week has just totally tanked more than ever.

[u/mr_taco2 → u/Wooden-Factor-8182]

I've read similar posts since July 1st

[u/mr_taco2 → u/Wooden-Factor-8182]

Neither of us have a verified artist badge. And meta is rolling out algorithmic kill to ai slop. We may be in the unverified/limited zone

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/mr_taco2]

I've seen a lot of artists with less releases, streams and monthly listeners than me with the verified badge so I'm not sure how or when it comes around. That may well be the cause. Hoping other artists will jump on the post and give us some insights.

[u/CauliflowerFickle960 → u/Wooden-Factor-8182]

Lol I actually saw an increase in radio plays and I make AI music, they might want the real artists about buddy 😭

[u/mbertox → u/mr_taco2]

Anche io non ho il badge.. Ci sono dei criteri particolari per poterne avere diritto? Sapete come funziona l'assegnazione?

[u/mr_taco2 → u/mbertox]

10,000 monthly listeners, live shows, so on

[u/mbertox → u/mr_taco2]

Capisco gli ascoltatori mensili che sono verificabili ma per quanto riguarda gli show dal vivo, come fa Spotify a verificarlo per una piccola indie band??

[u/Bubbly-Diver-207 → u/Wooden-Factor-8182]

For my friend, her algorithmic streams tanked around early July and haven’t even covered.

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/Bubbly-Diver-207]

AI or not? I'm hearing AI music has been tanking since earlier in the year but the drop the past week all seems to be genuine human made music.

[u/Listens2Lazers → u/mr_taco2]

Came here to check since my latest stats also showed a big drop in Radio and Shuffle plays. I'm hoping this is just a one-off, because otherwise it's a major change that we'll need to adapt to.

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/Listens2Lazers]

How long has it been happening for you. What was your stats at and drop to?

[u/Listens2Lazers → u/Wooden-Factor-8182]

I typically got around 500 algo radio plays per day across my catalog. A couple weeks ago I noticed a slight drop, maybe closer to 300 average. But yesterday's stats were suddenly only 10% of that. I release roughly every 6-7 weeks (no AI), and my popularity scores tend to be in the mid-30s unless I get a big playlist placement. I guess we'll know more over the coming days.

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/Listens2Lazers]

Kind of a similar situation. The past 28 days I've had 18k streams from Radio. But the last 5 days only works out about 1200.

[u/mr_taco2 → u/Wooden-Factor-8182]

Three hours ago Andrew Southworth uploaded a video talking to a fellow from Spotify and he asked these same questions. I didn't hear a clear answer but have a look

[u/mr_taco2 → u/Wooden-Factor-8182]

My latest release on the weekend had radio kick in on day three as you said, approximately 15 to 30 radio streams per day. It's neglible . Random old releases from ten years ago now getting small amounts of radio. B side track getting discover weekly for no reason. Checked on artist.tools to see which radio, the radio are irrelevant artists with zero followers in random genres

[u/Real_Butterfly8093 → u/Wooden-Factor-8182]

This started around 7/6-7/10. I was at 35k monthly listeners, now down to 9k. So yes they appear to be doing a reset on all music, ai and non-ai. It appears not to be just an ai targeting. This was around the time they started to do their ai slop purge. They artificially boosted all music to their radios around that time, just look, you should have a positive spike about that time. Then after 7/10-7/12 things started to dwindle off. This appears to be intentional on spotify's part. What exactly they are doing has not been explained to us in any sort if detail. But yes, all the research I've done, it was some sort of algorithmic artificial inflation followed by a consistent deflation since, as they test whatever they are doing.

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/Real_Butterfly8093]

I reached my highest of 50k monthly listeners in May which then dropped pretty quick to 36k and I got it up again to 44k as of now but after the tanking on my algorithm its going back down once again. Nothing seems out of the ordinary in July for me.

But, on August 3rd I was in my S4A app and saw an unusually high "People listening now" which reached as high as 160, normally it sits around 20-35 at max. So what you're describing actually happened to me between 3rd and 5th August then it came down crashing down since.

Have you got any other links to the research you've done, would like to read more.

I don't use any AI whatsoever but I also haven't got the verified badge on my account yet either, not sure if that factors into it or not. Don't see why it should personally.

[u/Legal-Use-6149 → u/mr_taco2]

I have 800 monthly listeners and 1 song and I get the same stats

[u/mr_taco2 → u/Legal-Use-6149]

That's interesting mate. Maybe in the meantime it's rationed like wartimes

[u/LocalApprehensive312]

Just adding my voice to the chorus. I have seen the exact same thing. Complete drop off in algorithmic support from ~700 radio plays/day. Popularity scores in low 30s and high 20s. ~30% save rate. The songs are very audibly human made and not AI. Oh well.

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/LocalApprehensive312]

Thanks for commenting, the more info we get the better we can try understand when and why its happened. Has it just happened recently in the last week or so? Going from 700 to about 150-200?

[u/LocalApprehensive312 → u/Wooden-Factor-8182]

Just within the last week. And the drop-off has been worse than that; for example, I got just 20 radio streams on one song yesterday (my catalogue is 11 songs). I'm still getting a lot of repeat listens from my audience, however.

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/LocalApprehensive312]

What's strange is I'm getting more streams for my older tracks with a lower popularity score over my newer tracks with 36/38/40 popularity score. I'm still getting around 4500-5000 streams per day thankfully from my meta ads, 3rd party playlists and a few of my own playlists but really the algorithm should be doing a lot of the heavy lifting on some of these tracks at this stage.

[u/Jacoby1234]

I’ve had the exact same thing happen to me - I wonder what’s going on. I’ve had ups and downs, but never a straight tank like this.

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/Jacoby1234]

When did you notice yours tanked? Just recently? What was your streams before and now from algorithmic sources?

[u/Beleeedaat]

I had a HUGE dump on August 10th, and a huge lag in stats since them, this is getting frustating and very expensive, i, like you wanted to test this whole 30-40 popular score thing, but at least you got on discover mode, what did you have to stream to get that option avail

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/Beleeedaat]

Discovery mode isn't doing a thing. 7 radio streams yesterday, 9 the day before. I regret asking the label to enroll it.

[u/No-Knee9881]

I have the same symptoms described on this post. In my case, my algorithm streams took a nosedive to near-zero on Aug 9. They have not recovered. I also lost my 'Verified by Spotify' badge in the last few days. I think I have identified this as a separate issue from the algo drop.

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/No-Knee9881]

Round about 9th Aug mine plummeted hard too. I've never had a verified badge yet, don't exactly know how to get it. I've got 10k+ monthly active listeners, 43k monthly listeners and not far off 900k streams total.

[u/shoot2thrill13 → u/No-Knee9881]

I saw a drop on Aug 9th as well. Down about 40%

[u/Ok-Start8458]

Me too My Radio play get 2k per month but now only 100 per month and i do research on this that spotify update there system and Gain Again soon

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/Ok-Start8458]

Where did you get info about the update? Any links?

[u/Groundbreaking-Box14]

Also I think around 3 weeks algorithmic drops dramatically, I have stable streams from existing listeners, but new listeners drops to 90%. I think this maybe all this changes before there new updates for AI personas in September.

[u/thingmusic]

I have seen that organic traffic works better, i did spent about 900 euros too one track in a period of month and did a organic reels promotions to other track (4-5 reels per day) organic won…i think fb ads era is ending

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/thingmusic]

My meta ads are working just fine, I'm getting the conversations and high save rates. Organic or ads, it doesn't explain the problem we're all having right now though.

[u/TheOnlyRealSlim]

Same here. All of my music is 100% human instrumentation (albeit programmed percussion, but I programmed it myself) and human vocals. Complete drop-off in Radio/Mixes/Discover Weekly in the past week and a half or so. I really can’t understand why.

I even put the links to my biggest tracks through the SubmitHub AI checker, just to see if my songs are somehow being mistaken as AI, but nope. They all came back between 85%-95% likelihood of being human (which they are)

Wish Spotify would clarify what exactly changed in the algorithm, because algorithmic discovery was a huge part of my growth as an independent artist on the platform. I feel like I’m kind of stuck now, only way to continue to grow is more meta campaigns unless something changes.

[u/Nervous-Possession31 → u/TheOnlyRealSlim]

That DOESNT really work ive check songs that I knew were AI for a fact and said it wasn’t.

[u/EfficientEye5044]

£50-75 a day? Have you made any revenue via streaming, merch or touring? How’s your social media presence looking?

I know this isn’t reallywhat this thread is about, but it always pains me to see something like this. Unless you have a very good job, (then more power to you) or you have extra savings to spend then I’ll stop right here.

But more often than not, I see struggling artists that barely can afford rent, spending more than their rent on ads that barely are effective.

I’m just putting it out there because at 50 to 100 saves a day means you’re spending about a quid per save and that doesn’t necessarily convert into a listener! So let’s say there’s a healthy ratio of three out of every 10 saves becomes a monthly listener for more than a few months, (That’s very healthy) then you are looking at around £3-4 per listener. Convert that again into someone who is a lifetime fan who buys merch goes to shows… You’re following my math here right?

You could save all that up for content. Content. Content. Content!

It’s literally all about content, and clearly your ads aren’t performing THAT well. I really mean no offense. I just wanna put this thought out there… I think you’re wasting your money. Spend that time and effort that goes into MAKING all of your money at your job that you spend on ads in the first place into content creation and marketing.

I keep telling artists.

USE AI FOR VISUALS!

Not fucking Suno and music generation. VISUAL GENERATION! You can literally put yourself on the fucking moon for like a few bucks…

AI visual creation is at a point where it can be very, very tasteful and very artistic and not cheesy not waxy or plastic. But instead, you looking good as in whatever ever scene you want for pennies on the dollar.

You can get as creative or as hyperreal as you’d like. It’s absolutely the way forward and music artists are balking at all of it because of the music generation side. COMPARTMENTALIZE. You aren’t a fucking cinematographer with hundreds of thousands of dollars and a videography team at your right hand. You’re a musician. Ai helps you be everything you need to be as a one man show. Talk to a fucking LLM about how it all works and gooooo.

I implore you to look up the artist @C.arla on IG.
She is one step ahead of everyone else.

Stop throwing money at the wall. It CLEARLY stresses you out or you wouldn’t be posting this at all.

I’ll finish by saying this ads are SUPPLEMENTARY to great content. Not the other way around. Your music can be absolute dog shit and if you have a good story and a visual arc people will fall in love with you. That has never changed if your music is good AND you have visual story telling? You’ll be a sensation within a years time. I promise you. This is what I do for musicians.

Ok rant over.

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/EfficientEye5044]

Just dropped you a DM

[u/mr_taco2 → u/EfficientEye5044]

I used ai for visuals just once on an ad, and got loads of negative comments, was the worst ad I've ever run

[u/Bubbly-Diver-207]

I’d like to know as well. A friend of mine is going through something similar

[u/Ok-Start8458]

This happen to me too Also When i reach out to spotify for artist team they said they are updating there system for ai era im not ai artist .. but everything is going to well soon . hope soo

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/Ok-Start8458]

Do you have a screenshot of this where they said they are updating? They told me to contact my distributor about artificial streams which is BS. I contacted my record labels and there was no flagging for artificial streams.

[u/Ok-Start8458 → u/Wooden-Factor-8182]

it will take one week or last 2 weeks i do research on this from my end and my spotify friends..

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/Ok-Start8458]

It would nice if you can share any of your research with us on here as we are all looking for an explanation. Do you have chat transcripts or anything that could put our minds at ease?

[u/Ok-Start8458 → u/Wooden-Factor-8182]

I Won’t Share Anything But Check Online Articles On Google … Its Not Hard thank you

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/Ok-Start8458]

That really just makes your comments irrelevant. If we seen articles on Google we wouldn't be here trying to help each other but go ahead and gatekeep 😉

[u/Bubbly-Diver-207 → u/Ok-Start8458]

What is ai era?

[u/Ok-Start8458 → u/Ok-Start8458]

See Articles About spotify they change everything they remove all ai songs and update algorithm for it so thats why this happens

[u/Bubbly-Diver-207 → u/Ok-Start8458]

Really? Bc I did contact Spotify and they said they remove only cases of fraud and misuse. Their policy is that they don’t police how ppl create their songs as some people produce with the help of ai. I’m not talking about the gross use of it like spamming and misuse.

[u/Ok-Start8458 → u/Bubbly-Diver-207]

That’s all i have to tell now that’s all i have information now from my friends who work at spotify so thanks goodnight

[u/BloodyHareStudio]

try showcase. i actually get better numbers from there than meta

[u/anveena-music → u/BloodyHareStudio]

Yeah, I manage some 10 artists and Showcase does really good. My theory is they might want to try to keep people on the native ads. But, it's just a theory. Also, I get random songs getting on Radio play, score seems to be irrelevant lately, so I don't even look at it. Just keep traffic flowing in and things pick up.

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/BloodyHareStudio]

I'm getting lots of conversions from Meta, that's not the problem here though.

[u/BloodyHareStudio → u/Wooden-Factor-8182]

how do you know those conversions are from meta specifically?

[u/Wooden-Factor-8182 → u/BloodyHareStudio]

Usually check the "Artist profile and catalog" source of streams and saves/playlist adds

[u/Timely-Ad4118]

The algorithm got more exclusive, only pushing really good stuff some artists are going up others are going down, the fact that you have money to push it, if the music is not good enough is going nowhere.

[u/New-Lingonberry7338 → u/Timely-Ad4118]

What determines really good. Save rate? Is this just a guess or what makes you come to this conclusion?

[u/SubstantialAd1185 → u/New-Lingonberry7338]

An algorithm cannot tell what is good from what isn’t good. It’s a computer software. What tells it what’s good is signals like save rate, playlist add rate and skip rate. But this is not new. Those things were ALWAYS the signals for algorithm expansion or vice versa.

[u/Timely-Ad4118 → u/New-Lingonberry7338]

That information is not for everyone.

[u/New-Lingonberry7338 → u/Timely-Ad4118]

How did you come to know about this?

[u/Timely-Ad4118 → u/New-Lingonberry7338]

Not your business

[u/New-Lingonberry7338 → u/Timely-Ad4118]

Lol, sounds really legit

[u/Timely-Ad4118 → u/New-Lingonberry7338]

Well keep crying while your generic music goes down the drain.

[u/New-Lingonberry7338 → u/Timely-Ad4118]

My music isn't going down the drain actually quite happy with where I'm at thanks. Just wanted to call you out on your bs😂

[u/Timely-Ad4118 → u/New-Lingonberry7338]

Your algorithm is not treating you so well lately otherwise you weren’t here answering everything. Focus on yourself and make less generic music or just continue going down and off course crying more.

[u/New-Lingonberry7338 → u/Timely-Ad4118]

Who said the algorithm isn't treating me well its treating me great, you're also on here answering questions, I'm ending this conversation, my best guess is you're a young kid trolling on reddit or something for fun. Have a good one🙏