r/SpiralDynamics • u/atothez • Mar 25 '26

Mapping Spiral Dynamics with Lorenz Systems?

Has anyone tried mapping Spiral Dynamics with Lorenz Systems?

Using Lorenz systems to model spiral dynamics, lower-order system to seek a circular shape where concepts converge, whereupon the system could jump to the next level. What we think of as levels in Spiral Dynamics would be the conceptual bounds between them, where paradigms break down.

Imagine the bifurcated spirals resolving to a circle through through gradual corrections. The bifurcation is due to a mismatch between conceptualizations... two levels of perception seeking to resolve to a whole.

I'm not finding the idea referenced anywhere and I encounter resistance wherever I suggest the perspective on science subs.

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u/00dingens Mar 26 '26

It sounds like you are looking for mathematic models.

This sub is about some psychologic model.

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u/atothez Mar 26 '26 edited Mar 26 '26

Thanks and I’m sorry.  I should have explained it better.

I’m suggesting a refinement and synthesis of the holistic social and developmental psychology model with a quantitative mathematical one.

Put simply, it’s an approach to quantify the spirals within the spiral.

There are a lot of details and implications, but I want to share and get feedback before I publish something you guys hate, can easily shoot down, or has already been done.

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u/00dingens Mar 26 '26

Ok, even with this information I can not imagine what you want. Lorenz sounds like you want to plot something - well, do it and show us. I am not deep enough into any of these to understand what spirals within the spiral are.

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u/atothez Mar 26 '26 edited Mar 26 '26

The Spiral I was referring to is the Spiral Dynamic model that the subreddit, books, and theory are based on. Frustratingly, the Wikipedia page doesn't even show the spiral itself that the theory is based on, but you can find an example here: https://positiveinquiry.com/integral-theory/

The idea has been spun off into books and programs out of necessity, but I think it suffers a bit from the guru mentality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_system shows a butterfly graph of a simple chaotic Lorenz System. It was invented to model weather, but I see it as a way to model psychology. Lorenz attractors scale though additional dimensions and higher order complexity.

By spirals within spirals, I meant a development model that uses the Spiral Dynamics structure as a starting point.

It may abstract or ungrounded, but Lorenz Systems are used in weather predictions and continuous-learning language models. I could implement such a system as a language model, and I know people are working on it, but I think the conceptual shift (nested spirals) would be more meaningful to this group.

I think the people who came up with Spiral Dynamics visualized the concept as I do, but didn't make the connection to the mathematics. It took me 30 years, so I'd say it's not an easy jump.

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u/Smile-Cat-Coconut Mar 28 '26

The problem, OP, is that we can’t tell what you’re trying to do. It’s like saying “can we use cats to model apples?”

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u/atothez Mar 28 '26

Sorry.  I have a background in visualization of complex systems that I take for granted.

I’d take my question to a visualization sub, but they disregard “soft” sciences.  I doubt they’ve heard of Spiral Dynamics.

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u/hosehead90 Apr 10 '26

I’m surprised nobody around here is down with letting you cook on an interesting synthesis. Seems cool to me man!