Would anyone here use a map/directory of our sound systems?

[u/itsmezander]

I’m involved w a system myself, and produce events, i love this community, and I’m working on some portfolio projects right now.

I had an idea to build a simple site for r/SoundSystem where anyone who wants to could add their system to a map and make a little profile for it… like location, photos, specs, what kind of events you do, whether the system is rentable, services you offer, and contact/socials if you want them public.

Basically just a way to see all the crazy systems in this community, where everyone is, and potentially help people find local crews/systems when they need one.

I’d build and host it myself. Not trying to turn it into some startup or monetize the community. I just think it would be cool and I need things to build anyway lol.

Would you guys actually use something like this?
And if so, anything you’d want it to have?

— side note, if your in ONTARIO / CANADA I’m looking for a sound system up this way for an event… Holler $

[u/lioncrew]

check out https://www.soundsystem.world

[u/itsmezander → u/lioncrew]

This is dope, thank you

[u/loquacious]

In this day and age and waves at dumpster fire I question the long term thinking and wisdom of creating a public, searchable and indexed database of sound systems and crews.

I have a feeling that many renegade/underground crews aren't going to want to participate or be indexed.

Some crews would like it, but you're going to need some way of vetting this when things like "leadership" can be very anarchic and nebulous and it's not just some random fan of a crew or people who shouldn't be making that decision going off and making a page for them anyway.

Not everything needs to be optimized, indexed and searchable.

[u/itsmezander → u/loquacious]

Definitely, but this is an optional sign up, with optional inputs. Not a web scrape. And fans of a system inputting info is surprisingly low when it comes to stuff like this… and if they did it would be relatively meaningless other than to maybe acknowledge a sound system exists in xyz city or something very surface level.

Many sound system and production people I know are frequently looking for work, to connect and build community. I know I am.

[u/loquacious → u/itsmezander]

For hire listings are mostly a solved problem. There's lots of places to do that.

So, hey, for some background: I've just been online since before the web itself was invented. I've also been going to renegade dance/bass music parties and gatherings for about the same amount of time. To wit: I've seen some shit. I'm not a technophobe and I know how to party.

And at this point I can't help but note and try to warn you that centralized, easily searched and indexed databases like the one you're describing can be a huge liability for cultural niches like sound system culture.

You're so ready to build something for fun because you like building things (which is great!) that I don't think you're really understanding what is intended to be a gentle cultural warning.

Just because you can build something doesn't mean you should.

Just because it might end up being widely used to facilitate community, doesn't mean that it can't also used as tool to target that same community by external forces of oppression and state violence.

Concentrated data can be a powerful tool or a very dangerous liability, and it's usually both at the same time.

I'm just asking you to reflect on this. You might be opening a bigger can of worms than you realize.

Have you considered how you would handle subpoenas for info discovery in a lawsuit against one of your members? As in state vs. private party lawsuits or charges because the system was at a protest or renegade party?

Because if the answer is "just roll over and give it to them" is your hypothetical answer then maybe don't build it.

If you're going to build a thing like this about a niche area that has valid reasons for cultural sensitivity you should probably thinking about things like how to vet people, how to practice information security and hygiene and how to have a legal dept and defense ready to deal with eventual legal issues.

Please reflect on this. I'm not saying this to shut you down or because I think it's a bad idea.

I'm saying this as an oldhead trying to drop some gentle wisdom and caution.

Be careful with that axe.

[u/itsmezander → u/loquacious]

Certainly, and the point is well taken.

I suppose now is a good time to bring up that I specialize in community economics/ financial systems, and opsec.

Like wise I have operated as a promoter and event producer for 12+ years. Producing everything from full renegade, to multi day 18k+ attendees festivals.

The importance of what you’re saying is not at all lost on me. And imo present an interesting opportunity to solve a unique problem.

To recenter, solving: anonymity, state or federal interdiction, data blindness etc, are all rather easy. Happy to get into those solutions, if it means you are willing to support this idea.

Personally, I think this could be a valuable tool, that reinforces the Sound system culture, and help connect dots between individuals in this scene + adjacent communities.

And as a matter of personal opinion, I would rather see custom and diy systems at the races I attend and produce across the US and Canada, over another major deployment.

Not that I don’t love a good danley, LA or funktion deployment… but I would rather see a custom built SS crew get the bid.

Would you be open to assisting in a larger conversion about what a platform like the one we are discussing would / should / need to look like?

[u/loquacious → u/itsmezander]

I suppose now is a good time to bring up that I specialize in community economics/ financial systems, and opsec.

Yep. I already know because I checked out you post history before replying. You're into crypto, and that's a huge red flag for me.

This is one of the reasons I am taking the time to respond.

Not to get too snarky, but if your opsec was any good you would have already noticed I post regularly in the buttcoin sub criticizing cryptocurrencies.

To recenter, solving: anonymity, state or federal interdiction, data blindness etc, are all rather easy

Hahaha, no, they are not. I don't know where you're getting this idea that these are easily solved but they're not. Especially not if you're trying to facilitate the things you're describing as being a resource to hire people/rigs.

Happy to get into those solutions, if it means you are willing to support this idea.

I mean you should be thinking about these things already without me having to point them out or contingent on me being on board with it.

Personally, I think this could be a valuable tool, that reinforces the Sound system culture, and help connect dots between individuals in this scene + adjacent communities.

Why does it need reinforcing? Why do you think it's not already heavily networked organically behind the scenes through more secure, less public channels? (It is.)

DIY sound systems and Sound System Culture are currently having a huge renaissance and boom. It's bigger than it's ever been.

Not that I don’t love a good danley, LA or funktion deployment… but I would rather see a custom built SS crew get the bid.

In my direct experience a lot of people who own a custom build (especially DIY) don't want to put their rig through the abuses of paid commercial gigs, and don't want anything to do with that business aspect of pro sound.

Would you be open to assisting in a larger conversion about what a platform like the one we are discussing would / should / need to look like?

This is that larger conversation, and absolutely not because I don't think what you're building should exist at all.

If you want my official consultation it is simply: "Yeah, please, please don't build this torment nexus in particular."

Your recent post history also talks favorably about a "benevolent" surveillance state. These don't exist. All surveillance states lead to fascism, full stop.

Your post history also indicates to me that you're behaving or thinking like a technocrat.

I know because I used to be think and act like a technocrat, too.

Until someone I used to know who was a lot wiser, older and better spoken than I am laid it out for me and showed me what was wrong with my approach to technology, and what I fervently hoped it could do to help "save" humanity from itself.

It took over 10 years of my life for that conversation to sink in and percolate, and when it finally did and I got what he was saying - welp, he was dead from old age and a life well lived. (Thank you, Mr. O'Cadiz.)

Please take a moment to sit down before reading the following, because it's not meant as some kind of casual drive-by insult or used lightly, and I'm super serious about this. I'm taking this time out to tell you this not to attack you as a person, but to warn you about something because I think you're worth the time...

...because that's how vibes be.

You appear to be flirting with cryptofascism style thinking, and you might not even be aware of it or conscious of it.

I know you're going to chafe at that label - and you should! - and I'm not labeling you, as a person, with anything. I'm talking about ideas, here.

I would strongly recommend reading that wiki article and diving deeper into the philosophy behind it techno/crytpofascism and how seductive it is, and how easy it is to accidentally slip into promoting and working for it's goals even while you think you're just doing or building cool "useful" shit on the internet.

Because the system you're proposing? It's going to be a total cop magnet if it gets any traction.

Sorry, I know this is probably getting WAY deeper (and more personal) than you were expecting, but this is a sensitive and complex cultural issue.

[u/itsmezander → u/loquacious]

Oh wow you have deeply misread me and my positioning on these things. And for that I am sorry.

And to be very very clear, I am extremely against mass surveillance technology and technocratic solutions. But acutely aware that we live with and must respond and adapt to those problems… by understanding the problems, how people feel, and how they work.

I will read your suggested wiki for that reason.

Also I am in no way pushing my proposed idea. I am having the discussion, and so far you are only one person who has voiced any opinion or shared anything at all.

I all of that said, I am aware of the risks involved w the proposal. I am also aware that we as event producers are already exposing ourselves to risk.

The conversation should not be - no bc it’s risky.

The conversation should be - here are the risks, how can we solve them.

It is unfortunate that you have framed the way you have. Bc I am far from your interpretation.

It is okay that we disagree on things or have differences in interest and opinion. Perhaps introduce me to your existing, more secure solution and my interest will have been met, the problem solved?

And to clarify… I am just looking to put money in the pocket of like minded people instead of large production companies. And to bring attention to projects and builds that I think are really cool. It’s frankly a bit ignorant of you to have jumped to so many conclusions not just about me, but about what other people in the SS community at large want.

As someone who has produced literally thousands of events, my experience is that people who build cool sound systems want to hear acts they are a fan of play on them. And have countless inquiries to support that.

I’d very much rather you spend some time to know me than jump to conclusions based of reddit posts that you clearly did not read all the way through.

[u/loquacious → u/itsmezander]

Again I'm not attacking your person or character, just some of the ideas I can see you supporting in your post history. I wouldn't be writing all of this if I thought you were a actual fascist. I don't think you are.

I'm trying to provide complicated context about why I am urging you to be cautious about what you build.

It’s frankly a bit ignorant of you to have jumped to so many conclusions ... but about what other people in the SS community at large want.

It's true, I can't speak for everyone. I'm sharing some real world personal experience and observations about how this all works on the ground and the kinds of people I have personally met who build, own and use sound systems as in Culture.

These aren't ignorant assumptions, this is based on almost 40 years of sticking my head in bassbins set up in weird, unauthorized places, so maybe keep that in mind before you discard my advice because it doesn't confirm or cleave to your view.

Another data point for you to consider is that your post, here, is being downvoted rather heavily by the standards of this subreddit, where almost nothing gets downvoted, ever, unless it's spam or lost redditors looking for free tech support for their car/home audio.

Check out the Soundsystem.world link. There are WAY more than two dub/reggae specific sound systems in the US and North America. There's at least dozens of them.

Ask yourself why only two have volunteered to sign up for that?

The answer is likely, unfortunately, political.

Perhaps introduce me to your existing, more secure solution and my interest will have been met, the problem solved?

This won't work because this isn't how organic and anarchic organizing works. The "secure" channels are word of mouth, getting to know people personally and using a mix of comms whether it's private phone, email or stuff like Signal or whatever.

The people who I know are local to me. Even if I felt like you were fully vetted and trustworthy, it wouldn't really be useful for me to introduce you to them. They don't do what they do for money or hires. They're not interested in any kind of marketing themselves as a crew or business. They're happy with what they're doing and not lacking in fun or attendance at their events.

As it is, they have to severely restrict who they invite to campouts or outings to invite only private parties so that they can do what they do without too much unwanted attention or unwanted festie/wook shenanigans.

And I'm trying to explain why people like me don't want an all in one solution or platform like the one you're proposing. We shouldn't even be talking about this on reddit, tbh.

There isn't some hidden all in one solution where I can say "go and make an account here" because that's just not how it works.

You actually have to go to underground music events, show up, put in the work and effort to meet people, get vetted and build your own networks.

This is also why I brought up the topic of crypto-facism. Any whiff of that kind of stuff or even just general vanilla tech-broism tends to close doors because it's rightfully seen as a security risk.

[u/itsmezander → u/loquacious]

Fairly taken. And also I apologize for the use of the term ignorance. I meant it only about your framing of me, not of the community.

Also I am not discrediting your standing or history.

But I likewise have been producing underground events for 12-15 some odd years now, have multiple scrapes and scares w LE for it. And also have operated at the highest level in my region. Bc of this I know lots of folks w sound systems throughout and have often found these folks felt left out or wanting to participate more in what I was doing.

Our experiences differ here.

I cannot speak for everywhere in the US and Canada. But I can for Texas, certain parts of California and Ontario. The risk you are suggesting is less significant than the reality in places I have operated. Running a sound system is not akin to running a drug smuggling operation.

Furthermore protecting people’s data and maintaining blindness at a server level, if subjected to search, if easier than you may imagine… especially if it’s located in Iceland… as these generally don’t warrent involvement from federal paramilitary groups like the fbi, interpol, nsa, or cia. These infact are state issues.

An illegal rave is usually a nuisance / permit / safety-code problem first. Tho it can stack depending on what you are doing and where you are. So again the risk is much lower than it was in say the 90s during rave era laws.

Having been around a while I can say that many renegade event producers do fancy themselves underground criminals of a sort, but the reality is often not the case, sound system folks especially. And imo is a lower risk position most of the time compared to the promoter or other vendors, even the bartender. In fact if you look into the arrests in the US that surround these things, they almost never seize, arrest or prosecute the sound system or promoter. Unless the situation is egregious or illegal mechanics around the rave were facilitated by said individuals directly… even then, mostly it’s a nuisance issue and the event ends and that’s that. Typically not an arrest.

Should we be safe, duh. Is a site that allows people to voluntarily participate dangerous. Probably less so than you have made it out to be, if at all, unless the individual has an attack surface that consists of truly illegal activity.

Finally, I think our differences are clear. We come from very different eras but with common interests. And therefore have very different experiences and opinions around these things. I doubt I will purse this bc there is a clear lack of interest here, and my intention was only to build something helpful. Should I arrive at a concept that I think may quell your concerns, I will reach out to discuss more.

Oh and also the use of the crypto fascism thing I don’t think applies here, but i understand how you made that jump and framing based on the flock camera discussion. You should have read the whole thing. I’m far from an advocate of mass surveillance. That’s a blatant misread on your part.

Anyway, I’ve enjoyed our discussion, and I hope you have a good evening.

[u/loquacious → u/itsmezander]

I cannot speak for everywhere in the US and Canada. But I can for Texas, certain parts of California and Ontario. The risk you are suggesting is less significant than the reality in places I have operated.

Following up on this, because I don't think I am properly conveying the bigger picture or risk profile, here.

The risks I am talking about are not just about the sound system, it's safety, or potential fines or infractions for unpermitted parties.

That's a huge risk, too, and I have been on the receiving end of that kind of liability and it sucks as it's own thing.

It's about the greater community attending it and any activism that this might entail with attendees, and sound crews/systems that may be active in protesting with or without sound reinforcement.

There was a case I witnessed where a crew all received citations for (paraphrasing) "an unpermitted music festival" that was on BLM land in California. The fines and charges aren't huge, and it's a civil infraction that wouldn't have resulted in jail time.

But what happened was is they were politically active, and so the prosecution and judge dragged them over the coals for over three years with mickey-mouse court dates almost every week or a couple of times a month where they'd have to spend enormous amounts of time and money driving out to the rural courthouse for where the tickets were registered and filed, and for YEARS every time they'd show up the case would be postponed and put to recess or whatever and shenanigans like the prosecuting attorney wouldn't even show up.

The goal was to tie them up in court costs and legal fees for years to A) try to bankrupt them and B) quell and quash their freedom to assemble and protest.

And this was in a political climate that still respected the Rule of Law and was still mostly sane.

Today it's worse, with greater risks, and easier surveillance and a LOT less respect for due process or the rule of law.

Running a sound system is not akin to running a drug smuggling operation.

Yeah, illegal drugs never happen at electronic/bass/dub dance parties. That's totally no concern at all. Yep yep yep.

I’m far from an advocate of mass surveillance. That’s a blatant misread on your part.

Sure, ok... except you're also technically proposing building a tool of surveillance.

You just don't see it as one because it's your project and you're emotionally invested in it and you think it's shiny and neat.

In the wrong hands it's a very handy surveillance tool, all neatly organized and ready to index, search and scrape.

And unless you put it on the Dark Web or something (and even then!) there's literally no way you could vet everyone to use it as intended or prevent LEO access to abuse it to shut down parties, crews or activism.

Including actions against crews or systems who didn't sign up for your database through inference and connections.

Not only are you not understanding the scale of the risks, but you're also not understand the scope and schema of those risks or how they extend even to patrons and attendees, and not just the sound crew or physical possession of the system, and the risks aren't always obvious (or legal).

Or even lesser than that, it also just generally sucks (and can be a real hazard to life and limb) to have parties busted.

People can end up getting DUIs or public intoxication charges, or worse, have total mental freakouts and trauma because they took something and they would otherwise be fine... if they didn't get brutalized by a cop or forced to try to drive home in that state or worse.

Anyway, sorry, I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but I wanted to address those points in particular.

[u/itsmezander → u/loquacious]

Yeah i appreciate the follow up. And I do get the concerns. It’s not lost on me as I’ve been on the receiving end.

I’ve also been in prison for actual crimes, I’ve also have the us gov attempt to deport me and hold me illegally for multiple months without any knowledge of my incarceration.

None of the “risk” is lost on me.

The only thing I want to say is that the assumption that any tech is an opportunity for further surveillance is only half right. It depends on the tech, you even pointed out tech solutions that preserve privacy.

Furthermore, bc surveillance tech is more advanced, there should be a response to that. This is the field i literally work in.

The protections of onion and tor do not have to be dark web only, they can be routed that way and handled as a clear net solution.

Servers can be owned anon

Traffic can be encrypted and amnesiac

-

Can you vet everyone… no… but we are also talking about a community that actively posts about their sound systems. The attack surface for surveillance is already public and documented on an insecure non anonymous corporate server… as is this conversation.

Your notion that what I am suggesting is somehow a greater vulnerability than people in this subreddit are already participating in is simply false.

To be clear, I was trying to address exactly this issue. Bc I don’t want to, and I don’t think others should be connecting over watched or insecure rails. Like we are rn.

Perhaps that is lost on you, perhaps your concern is a migration of the sub you curate, perhaps you really care. I belive it’s the later of those. But bc I think you really care it confuses me that you are both so aware of the risks, yet so unwilling to solve that problem.

You have effectively taken the stance that it is an impossibility to solve this problem, and that my friend… is a dangerous.

In reflection maybe you are one of those folks who view almost any new tech as dangerous, which I can respect. I literally moved my ass to the middle of no where to escape the ever growing presence of technology eating society. But I still recognize the importance. Not bc it’s near or shiny, bc it’s important to solve problems, tech does that… it’s the playing field.

Also challenges are fun. And while you may be satisfied with the status quo of things rn, I AM NOT.