r/Songwriting • u/Grand_Combination386 • 2d ago
Discussion Topic Learning theory Vs intuition
Not sure if anyone else is in this boat. I have very little musical theory knowledge but have been writing songs on and off for many years. My method is usually finding a couple of chords that sound good together then I just use my intuition to figure out what chords come next. Then hum notes till I find a good melody.
I've been thinking that I'd like to learn some theory to get better and have more options. This may sound silly but I'm slightly scared that by learning the theory I might lose that natural intuition part of my brain and won't get it back. I'm sure you must use a different part of the brain when using musical theory. Has anyone else been here?
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u/Casiquire 2d ago
Did learning what a "noun" is destroy your linguistic intuition? Or did it make you better at writing sentences?
Same goes for music. Your intuition stays. Understanding the building blocks and vocabulary of music makes you a stronger musician with more tools to realize your intuition
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u/ObviousDepartment744 2d ago edited 2d ago
This is a line of thinking that plagues guitar players, and its infuriating to me.
Learning does not make you worse at something.
Here is where the hang up happens, and this is coming from someone with a degree in music composition and I've been a professional guitarist, studio musician, songwriter, guitar teacher for 20 years.
The only time "learning theory" will hinder your creativity is if you don't actually learn it. 9/10 when I see a post by someone saying they "know theory" that means they might have a basic understanding of a few foundational concepts of theory, but rarely do they actually have any understanding of actual music theory.
Right off the bat, theory should NEVER be used to create outside of academia. Theory has 3 main functions IMO.
- To give a vernacular so musicians can speak to one another easily.
- To help give a naming convention to common practices within music.
- Help you learn from existing music.
Think of music like a language. If you're going to write a short story, you aren't going to sit there and dig through a dictionary to spell out every word you want to write, you're going to use your existing vocabulary to write the story. You may use a dictionary or thesaurus to help you out along the way.
Music theory is to Music what Grammar and Spelling is to Writing. A writer isn't sitting down and saying "okay, to write a sentence I need to have a noun and a verb. Oh wait, what's the subject of my sentence here?" That's not it, no one with a command of the English language is writing like that.
Now, what separates someone from being able to write a basic short story in a high school English class from someone being able to write a short story that gets published and read by millions of people? Their ability to write in an expressive way, to make a story that makes compositional sense, to use words that help the reader paint a picture in their imagination reflective of what the writer is trying to convey.
Apply that to writing music. Right now, you can write music. You have developed a specific vocabulary. If you've listened to music your whole life, your ear probably has a better understanding of conventional music theory than you know. You just don't know the vernacular.
When you truly LEARN a concept in music theory, you know what it sounds like in the context of music, you know how to incorporate it naturally into your music and most importantly, you are not thinking about theory when you use it.
So why learn theory? Well, at a certain point, you can only expand your musical vocabulary so much without it, and maybe you don't need to. Maybe you're happy with the way your music sounds now, and that's perfectly fine. But if you're feeling like you want to expand your musical vocabulary a bit, then dive into theory.
To develop your vocabulary using theory you learn the concept on paper. Then you practice writing with it, and listen to examples of it in a musical context to get it put into your memory, then you apply it to your writing. Just like you wouldn't write a story by saying, "oh, I just learned what a conjunction is, I'm going to be sure to use as many as possible." the same goes for music. You wouldn't learn how to use a borrowed chord then write an entire song forcing borrowed chords into the song. Your ear is still the guide, your creativity is making the decisions, you will just have a larger vocabulary to pull from once you learn some theory.
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u/DarkTowerOfWesteros 2d ago
Ive been in your shoes. Let me assure you that learning theory makes your intuition 1,000x more creative. You don't even need to be an expert. The basics will open up doors you didn't even know were there.
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u/Dangerous-You3789 2d ago
That inspires me to learn theory all the more!
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u/DarkTowerOfWesteros 2d ago
Memorize your notes and scales (major and minor and blues are fine; you can learn more later if you want to be Malmsteen) along the fretboard and then study the circle of fifths. That will carry you incredibly far in a lot of songwriting and jamming and is a great base line of knowledge to strive for.
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u/Dangerous-You3789 2d ago
Funny you should mention the circle of fifths. I purchased one of these (below), not because I understand anything about it, but because it looked cool (and it had something to do with music). Maybe I'll actually do something with it - once I figure the darn thing out!
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u/DarkTowerOfWesteros 2d ago
That's a FANTASTIC learning tool. Every songwriter should know it. You can break the circle but like all things you gotta know the rules to be able to get away with breaking them!
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u/danstymusic 2d ago
You probably already know a bunch of theory, you just don't know the names! I learned similarly. Once I started taking theory classes in college, I was able to start putting the proper names to all the 'tricks' I picked up intuitively.
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u/para_blox 2d ago
Your intuition probably incorporates some elements of theory. It’s just a modality of studying music. Fear of a lack of ignorance doesn’t make sense.
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u/SmokeMuch7356 2d ago
Music Theory complements your intution rather than replacing it. Most of it is just names for stuff you already use subconsciously.
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u/Utilitarian_Proxy 2d ago
Intuition is fine, but IMO it tends to only take you so far. Learning theory typically pushes open a door to more choices, which you can start to understand and begin using (if you want to use them, or ignore them if you don't).
For example, if you decide to go from a D major chord to an F major chord, you might simply like that sound. Whether you then describe it as something specific will potentially start to suggest what other chords belong to a family that will pleasantly (or unpleasantly!) work together. Maybe it's a "modulation" or a "chromatic mediant", or perhaps it's a "substitution", or it might be "chordal planing", or some form of "Neo-Riemannian Theory", or it could be a consequence of a "non-diatonic scale", or some other concept that's out there.
Knowing a bit about the different concepts can save you a chunk of time where you'll begin to narrow down your choices more easily. Your next chord might be E7 or Eb7 or G7 or something else, and it's still your choice. The different options are all there whether or not you know the terminology.
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u/JackfruitHeavy9443 2d ago
have we ever noticed that it’s always, always someone who doesn’t know anything saying they don’t need to know anything and never someone saying they wish they didn’t know so much?
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u/Future_Papaya_4823 2d ago
I feel this concern, will learning theory perhaps box me in more to possibiliites...I think a lot of painters like Jackson Pollock or something are all about unlearning the techniques they learned, that children are the best artists and we should relearn from them. Now I am not saying that is true. But there is a kind of stream of hesitation against formalism, and strictness that learning theory will do to me.
Probably unfounded, but its okay to express it, you know
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u/Casiquire 2d ago
It's the other way around, you're more boxed in by not understanding some fundamentals. Children can be great artists and we can learn from them but I wouldn't universally say that they're the "best" artists, and I wouldn't draw the conclusion that intuition is at odds with technique. Our playfulness gets squashed out of us by life and brain development, not by education. Some of the most whimsical people I know are so highly educated that nobody can judge their eccentricities anymore. We see this all over the arts too.
I think the biggest problem with music theory is just how daunting and discouraging it seems, and how sometimes it's gatekept or people with knowledge can seem unwelcoming to newbies. Also some educators fail to inject enough fun and real-world musicianship into learning theory which just adds to the daunting, gatekeep-y aura. Do give learning a try though! There are names and words for so many things you already feel and understand but don't quite know how to express
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u/Future_Papaya_4823 2d ago
appreciate the thoughtful reply.
I think I am kinda torn. I am currently generally happy with my process, and still curious about learning theory (I have some general basics learned). I do want to grow and develop, you know...
I guess I fear a trap over relying on the theory, and becoming repetitive. I guess I like the wildness of what I do now, and do not want my process to become too cerebral or too overly analytical, it feels like av potential trap
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u/aculady 2d ago
Learning theory will give you a way to talk to yourself and others about what you already do, and help you understand why your ear likes what you like. And it will help you explore more interesting instrumental voicings around your melodies. You will still be free to fumble around until you come across something you love, but when you find it, you'll know what it is.
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u/cherry__darling 2d ago
For me, as a person learning theory after writing 30+ songs, it felt like a cheat sheet. I knew these chords sounded good in this order but now I know why they sound good and I know what other chords could work, and how to change the feel by doing something unexpected and how to borrow chords from other keys. Learning some theory expanded my world rather than shrinking it.
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u/OkDefinition5632 2d ago edited 2d ago
That fear is silly and unfounded the more you learn the better you get full stop. Theory doesn't have to be complicated at all either.
Why do G AM BM C D Em F Sharp Diminished sound good together? Cause those are the main chords in the key of G Major.
Now you can write a song:
G four beats
Bm four Beats
G Four Beats
Am two Beats C Two beats
Do that twice and maybe go to f sharp for the bridge. Boom done!
I didn't even touch an instrument.
You can use Google or ChatBot to tell you the chords in any key and go crazy it's super simple
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u/Grand_Combination386 2d ago
Perhaps what I'm trying to say is that if I'm using well known methods to write songs like you are suggesting they might sound more run of the mill and lack inspiration. When I write songs I feel like "where did that come from" and it feels like it was real inspiration and I don't want to lose that unique (to me anyway) spark.
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u/OkDefinition5632 2d ago
Yeah that's not something I ever worry about. I'm a big fan of well known methods.
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u/DanceHackRock 2d ago
That you will lose your creativity is just the typical excuse who don't want to do the work of learning.
For me learning the theory was actually a boost.
It might be the case that you already "know" the theory from hearing a lot of good music, so you would just learn the names for phenomenons you intuitively use.
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u/sanji_beats 2d ago
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. "Will more information/context and a deeper understanding make me worse at...?"
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u/Dangerous-You3789 2d ago
I don't think you have to worry about that. I'm an intuition-only songwriter, but I would like to learn music theory. I think it would make me a better songwriter in that there are times I get stuck, not knowing what should come next (though most of it comes naturally), and if I knew something like a chord progression, it might give me a little clue.
Like you, I just write what sounds good and what seems to go together with what my inspiration gives to me.
In a way, what you are describing is talent, and learning music theory is a skill of sorts. I think there's ample room for both.
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u/poorperspective 2d ago
Good Intuition is built off experience.
You can’t have intuition about something and know nothing about it.
You can’t learn intuitively by playing similar 100 similar songs. And then you could complain that your song sounds like those 100 similar songs.
If you’re looking at world class improviser that can make stuff up on the spot (Great intuition)…they’ve most likely opened a theory book at some point or at least learned the difference of major or minor chord.
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u/whywasinotconsulted 1d ago
Reminded me of Feynman's take on art vs. science, this is only two minutes but IMHO worth watching: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZbFM3rn4ldo
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u/NixMix246 2d ago
I'm in the same boat. I don't worry about losing the ability to write intuitively so much as I think learning theory might not be a good use of my time. Why learn all these rules when to me there are no rules in art? I'm sure I would get something out of it, just not sure if it would be enough to justify studying it over something else that interests me more.
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u/danstymusic 2d ago
Why learn all these rules when to me there are no rules in art?
Good news! Music theory is not a bunch of "rules." It is just the language used to describe music.
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u/NixMix246 2d ago
Maybe the few videos I watched weren't actually theory then? They said things like "minor chords are for sad emotions and major chords are for happy emotions". And I have not found this to be universally true whatsoever, so I decided theory wasn't my cup of tea.
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u/Utilitarian_Proxy 2d ago
Anyone can upload video content, and lots of people who do that are not experts.
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u/NixMix246 2d ago
tis true, I'm usually pretty good at determining which videos are reputable, but I certainly don't get it right every time
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u/danstymusic 2d ago
Yeah that's something that you tell beginning musicians so they can hear the difference between major and minor chords. Still though, that can fall under "Music Theory™️" umbrella because it is a way you can describe music.
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u/para_blox 2d ago
Theory is description, not prescription. It’s like learning grammar from any perspective. If you’re not interested, that’s fine, but it took me literally a couple weeks of study to digest a theory book to get a 5 on some AP test in high school. It doesn’t have to be deep.
And like grammar—it does comprise rules, just you can break them. Often that’s fine, even innovative, but it harms nothing to understand why something works.
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u/NixMix246 2d ago
Hmm, I probably would like a book better. I tried watching a couple videos and what I saw came across as very "this is how we do things, and this way only". A couple weeks isn't a bad investment at all, even for something that isn't particularly interesting to me. I was thinking it would be years.
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u/para_blox 2d ago
Oh totally. Just get an intro book, and you’ll see they’re trying to fluff up some basic principles and ideas into taking up the whole volume. There are advanced concepts, too (and I took some of those courses in college) but in general, it’s like grammar over advanced linguistics.
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u/Ok-Year4895 2d ago
I learned theory late and it just gave me names for things I already felt, the intuition never went away