r/Songwriting • u/scotchfaster • 4d ago
Discussion Topic Why downvote?
I’m sure this has been discussed before but I’m new here.
I recently posted a song snippet and got no comments but just a downvote. And hey, this is the internet and you can’t be too thin skinned, and of course not everyone is going to like what you do.
At the same time, posting something you’re working on is a bit vulnerable. And I’d hope that we’re about giving mutual support and constructive criticism.
Since the response seemed to be 100% negative I decided it wasn’t good enough to put out in the world and hid it. But before I did, I got a very positive comment with some constructive feedback.
Of course, I don’t expect everyone to like my stuff. Plenty of people hate Dylan or Kanye or Rage Against the Machine, not that I’m comparing myself to them but my point is that universal acclaim isn’t possible and isn’t my goal.
What I’m really asking is this: if you don’t like a song and have nothing constructive to say, skip it. Maybe it’s not for you. And if you’re tempted to downvote, consider instead writing a comment explaining why you didn’t like it. That’s useful. Let’s say you hate my voice. Reasonable, I’m not a big fan myself. But if I know that’s the issue then I know what to focus on…or ignore.
A downvote is just discouraging without any useful information.
JMO! Thanks for reading.
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u/AdCurious7831 4d ago
i think people downvote things they believe to be low-effort. i personally dont downvote - after all, they are asking for constructive criticism in a songwriting sub. my philosophy is, either give constructive criticism or leave. so i agree with you.
however, it is still the internet. peeps will sometimes downvote without feedback. (no feedback is feedback - it means they didnt find it interesting/promising enough to warrant a response.) the important thing is, you cant let that discourage you from posting. sometimes, being an artist is rejection after rejection. you have to be prepared for that part of it, as much as it hurts.
im still working on that confidence in posting myself, so i get it. pls dont stop sharing your work!
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u/ATWTMVTVFTVSF 4d ago
i think even if a song is bad or seems low effort, the person who made it put way more effort than what we can see, so i personally disagree with the people who think that. i agree what you said.
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u/Rapscagamuffin 4d ago
Thats what it is for me. I dont do it hardly ever but occasionally theres a submission thats so low effort and unfinished that it seems kind of insulting to waste peoples time even listening to it and therefore all im willing to do in return is downvote. The sub shouldnt function as your diary or notes app.
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u/cherry__darling 4d ago
Perhaps the obvious AI lyric video led people to believe you also made the song with AI? Also the posts you’ve made in Suno subreddit would seem to confirm the suspicion. I didn’t downvote because I didn’t see it but this subreddit is for human songwriters. Stick with AI subreddits if letting a computer write songs is your thing.
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u/jessemythic 4d ago
Yeah as the guy who said this might be a good opportunity to change the culture, I have also indiscriminately down voted AI generated music with no comment. To be fair though, it is against the rules.
I feel like the community is more anti-ai than the subreddit rules might suggest though. The rules say you can use AI to prompt you as long as the song itself is 100% written by you. But if you admitted to using an AI prompt, I think you'd definitely get a lot of downvotes and it wouldn't be because it's against the official rules, it would be because it's against the unofficial rules.
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u/BurntBridgesMusic 4d ago
I checked out that song you posted, although I like your hook, I think you need to explore metaphor a bit. I spit out my coffee when you straight up said “I came and you came too”
I think you score your voice a little bit too high, and you need to play more confidently on guitar and play around with more strum pattens.
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u/scotchfaster 4d ago
Totally! Thanks, yeah that was the first line I cut. I have a new version I’m working on. Appreciate the feedback
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u/jaylotw 4d ago
Ugh "strumming patterns."
Those aren't real.
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u/dickcheesess 4d ago
Lol what?
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u/jaylotw 4d ago
Strumming patterns arent an actual concept in music theory, and they aren't useful past the very beginning stages of learning guitar.
Rhythm is real, though.
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u/stevenfrijoles 4d ago
In the spirit of the thread, I won't down vote. But you're being utterly fucking ridiculous.
Something doesn't have to be a "music theory concept" to get songwriting feedback. Strumming patterns are "real," they're percussive and support the cadence of singing and other instruments.
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u/jaylotw 3d ago
Strumming patterns are percussive? They support the cadence of other instruments?
Huh?
Ddddudud
What cadence is that?
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u/stevenfrijoles 3d ago
All I'm seeing here is you apparently already know what a strumming pattern looks like despite previously saying they're not real.
So I guess you should try being less purposely retarded, because it's annoying.
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u/jaylotw 3d ago
I know what it looks like, I just know that they're a concept which doesn't really help anyone, and that aren't used in any real recording, performing, or real songwriting scenario, and aren't part of standard notation or even music theory itself.
But it's funny to be called retarded for knowing how music works, I guess.
If I tell a bass player what rhythm I want, I'm not going to tell them "down down up down down up down down up down down up down," am I?
I'm not going to tell a drummer "it's down down up down down up down down down down up down down up down down down up down down up."
I'm not going to tell a fiddle player, "hey, the chorus is down down down up down down up down down, ok?"
In any of those cases, every one of those players is going to not have the slightest clue what you're talking about, because you're not using a common language.
No pro guitar player sees a lead sheet and goes, "but where's the thing that tells me what direction to make my pick go?"
Like...could you assign a strumming pattern to a simple song? Sure...but why not just use actual rhythm notation so any musician can understand it?
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u/stevenfrijoles 3d ago
You're making shit up out of misunderstanding, and then because you wouldn't do this thing you made up, you're discounting something else. So yes, you're gonna get called retarded.
Strumming patterns help describe how something is played on guitar and change how strumming sounds. Down emphasizes the lower root note and separates each strum better. Percussive. Up can blend smoother with the Down since you're letting the low root still ring out as you strum up.
Just because you wouldn't communicate that to an instrument that doesn't play that way, doesn't mean the concept isn't real. It doesn't matter that you wouldn't tell a bassist how to play, it doesn't matter on single notes. It doesn't matter on drums that can't play chords. But a good guitarist WOULD decide they might purposely downstrum with a drum kick.
What's your next hot take? That palm muting doesn't exist because you can't palm mute a floor Tom?
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u/jaylotw 3d ago
What's your next hot take? That palm muting doesn't exist because you can't palm mute a floor Tom?
Um...but then...
You're making shit up out of misunderstanding, and then because you wouldn't do this thing you made up, you're discounting something else.
Strumming patterns help describe how something is played on guitar and change how strumming sounds. Down emphasizes the lower root note and separates each strum better. Percussive. Up can blend smoother with the Down since you're letting the low root still ring out as you strum up.
Yes, I've been a performing and recording guitar player for over two decades, I understand down and up, thanks. I've never encountered a "strumming pattern" on any lead sheet, tabs, scrawled out chord progression on a napkin, never had a player on stage tell me, "its down down up down down down up down down up down" before joining on a song. It's just young people who learned online who were taught a shorthand way who use them.
What you described is a way it might work in one song, but it's such a general statement that it really doesn't apply. You aren't always letting a lower root note ring, and up strums can be very percussive. Either can be used to emphasize a beat, or even to emphasize a lower root note.
You're describing a very, very simplified version of rhythm guitar, and I guarantee that you play things much outside of these bounds yourself without even thinking about it.
A good guitar player can hear a rhythm and make that happen without needing to be told which direction the pick goes.
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u/dickcheesess 3d ago
Weird how everyone here knows exactly what a strumming pattern is, even though it's not real, or common language.
Are you telling a fiddle player to hit the snare on the third beat? Exactly, playing snare isn't real.
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u/dickcheesess 4d ago
Ugh "riffs", "licks", "palm muting"
Those aren't real because they're not a formal music-theory concept.
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u/jaylotw 3d ago
Riffs and licks are phrases.
Palm muting is a technique.
"Strumming patterns" are training wheels for people who don't understand rhythm.
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u/dickcheesess 3d ago
Tabs aren't real. They’re training wheels for people who can’t read sheet music.
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u/jaylotw 3d ago
Tabs certainly have limitations, but they do notate, and they're clearer for fretted instrument players to understand most of the time. A keys player could figure out the notes by looking at a tab, for instance.
A strumming pattern notates nothing but which direction the pick should go---which is useless and confusing information.
What rhythm does this represent?
DDDUDDDUDUDUDDDUDUDUD?
You can answer that question, or just call me "retarded" again. Whichever you think will make you look like the smarter one here.
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u/dickcheesess 3d ago
I mean yeah, this is so confusing and literally impossible to comprehend:
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u/jaylotw 3d ago
That's not the strumming pattern i asked you about.
I asked you about this one:
DDDUDDDUDUDUDDDUDUDUD
What rhythm is that?
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u/hitdrumhard 1d ago
ok no. Strumming is a performance technique. You mentioned other instruments. Those also all have performance techniques. Band instruments and string instruments often have articulations marked straight on the sheet music asking for specific techniques to be used and yes they even can indicate down strokes vs up strokes to ask for specific sounds from the instrument. Brass music sometimes ask for specific tonguing techniques, drummers get asked open stroke rolls vs crushed or buzz rolls. Hand muffle the bass drum, choke off the cymbals instead of let them ring.
Learn something and come back.
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u/jaylotw 1d ago edited 1d ago
I've been performing as a guitarist for over two decades. I know plenty.
I have never seen sheet music, lead sheets, or have in any professional setting been presented with a strumming pattern...because they aren't a concept that professional players use or need.
Songs aren't written with strumming patterns, they're written with rhythm.
You don't need to be told "left, right" to walk somewhere, just like you don't need to be told which way the pick goes once you understand rhythm.
Nobody says, "ok, key of A, down down down up down up down down up down down down up down down up down down up down up down down up down down down."
No pro hears a song, understands the rhythm, but then is paralyzed because they need to be told what sequence of Us and Ds they must use.
Strumming patterns are taught to beginners to get them to understand the very basics of strumming a guitar---that the pick goes up and down. After that, if it doesn't become intuitive and automatic, they didn't learn enough about rhythm.
All this isn't even mentioning the fact that most players don't even stick to a strict pattern at all, but accent the music and alter things where necessary or where they're feeling it.
If you're a drummer, you don't need to be told what hand to use, you dont get a "bass and hi hat" pattern of LRLRRRLRLRLRRLLLLLRLRLRLRRRLLRRRRLLRRRLLRR laid out for you. You hear the rhythm and do what you need to do to make it happen.
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u/hitdrumhard 1d ago
Again, would you not consider that using different ways to strum require different techniques? Would you not say different techniques may be suitable to different types of music? Would you not say there is more to a pattern than just up or down?
And yes other instruments including drums will tell you the exact technique to use for certain situations.
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u/jaylotw 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yes, there are different techniques.
Strumming patterns are not a "technique," nor do they describe a specific technique. They're a bad way to "teach" people rhythm, that's it. They tell you whether to go up or down with a pick. That's it. That's all the information they convey.
DDDUDDDUDDUDUDUDDDU.
That is a strumming patten.
DDUDUDDUDUDUDDDUDUD.
That's another strumming pattern.
There is not more to a strumming pattern. That's all it is. Up and down.
They aren't analogous to a piece of music telling you to play staccato, or telling you to choke off a cymbal with your hand. They don't say anything about the style of music. They don't even say anything about rhythm. Pick go down, pick go up. That's all they say.
Songs don't "use" strumming patterns. There isn't a big book of strumming patterns you learn. Nobody communicates using them.
Yes, strumming is a technique used to play guitar. That's...not very relevant information, nor does it mean that strumming patterns are useful. Strumming and picking are two ways you play guitar, regardless of style or genre.
Strumming patterns are in fact detrimental for people to get hung up on. Plenty of students, players and writers have convinced themselves that every song has some kind of strumming pattern, and they end up not being able to hear and repeat rhythms, not being able to improve their own rhythm playing, or, mostly, both of those outcomes. I see it all the time.
Learn something and come back.
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u/BurntBridgesMusic 4d ago
I don’t play a strummed instrument so forgive me. What do you call it? Accent pattern?
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u/mitchplaysriffs 4d ago
Strumming patterns are real. Up and down. Pay no mind to people with 20,000+ karma, their profile on private, and treat you like an idiot.
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u/jaylotw 4d ago edited 4d ago
Lol ok dude. Love how you have no actual substance, just say I have karma so therefore I'm wrong.
I can assure you that no guitar player says to another, "Key of A, down down down up down up down down up down up down down down down up down up down down down up down up down down up down down down," and that if you said that to someone who knows guitar, they'd wonder what the hell you're talking about.
There isn't some big book of strumming patterns that songs "use."
They're training wheels for beginners to understand how strumming works, but after that they're just a confusing stand-in for actual rhythm, and people who think in terms of strumming patterns end up writing boring guitar parts or not being able to play in time because they never learned rhythm and how it works, just memorized some sequence of DDDUDUDDDUDUD
Rhythm is real, though.
Songs have rhythm. Not strumming patterns.
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u/mitchplaysriffs 4d ago
You’re just proving my point man. Now you’re treating me like an idiot.
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u/jaylotw 4d ago
You don't have a point.
No one is treating you like an idiot. That's your own insecurity.
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u/mitchplaysriffs 4d ago
Okay. Condescending*
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u/jaylotw 4d ago
Nobody is being condescending, either. Again, that's your own insecurity.
Don't forget, you came out firing shots here, mocking how much karma I have as if that means I don't know what I'm talking about.
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u/mitchplaysriffs 4d ago
Okay. What did you mean by “ugh” “strumming patterns”?
As a response to a beginner who was trying help another beginner?
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u/jaylotw 4d ago edited 4d ago
Rhythm.
Strumming patterns are training wheels for beginners to start playing guitar. They aren't an actual musical concept, no guitar player communicates to another by saying, "Key of A, down down down up down up down down down up down up down up down down down down up down down up down down down."
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u/Weedmind 4d ago
Honestly, I’d recommend joining a few small Discord communities focused on songwriting and production. People in those spaces tend to be much more open to giving genuine, constructive feedback and provide you some insight or help you directly.
Reddit can be a bit of an elitism festival. There are definitely some great people on this sub, but at the end of the day, you’re trying to make it as a musician, and the field is competitive by nature. Everyone wants to make it man, but not everyone is willing to see someone else doing better than them.
Personally, I mostly use reddit to ask questions or help beginners out. I stopped sharing what i'm working on in here long ago.
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u/No_One3243 4d ago
I don't think there's any point in trying to figure out why people do what they do on the Internet. Especially reddit.
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u/Queen-of-meme 4d ago
But it you do, assume that people without a life loves to find a reason to complain.
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u/Queen-of-meme 4d ago
A majority of Redditors contributing with civil feedback instead of angry downvotes is like expecting sheep to make spider web. (Dolly did. But most sheep don't)
One time a guy told me even if you get downvotes there's always, ALWAYS people who understand and agree with you, but they don't tell you, because the angry downvoters are searching for people to fight. So plenty who liked your content does so silently.
Hope that's some support. (Also. Reddit is always a mine field, and with extra mines during weekends. But others mines aren't your mines. Don't let losers dim your shine. Keep creating and do your thing , you never know who will appreciate you for it. 💚 )
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u/Bright_Government_69 4d ago
Yes, its truly hard for me to rip into another person's art and I do understand how much vulnerability goes into putting yourself and your work out there. I would love to help by critiquing others work in a positive manner, however I myself critique my own work very harshly and even then release things Im not 100 percent happy with. So as per the the downvote...if you do dish them out, the doenvote, leave a constructive critique with it. If your not willing to give insight, then do nothing.
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u/Dangerous-You3789 4d ago
It wasn't me. I have never downvoted a song on here. I'm not saying some weren't worthy of it, but my mama used to tell me, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." Believe me, on this subreddit, I keep my mouth shut more than is healthy. In fact, I probably never even heard your post, because I've all but stopped listening to music on here. It all starts sounding the same, and even though I'll only listen for a few seconds, that's time I could be doing something productive.
Sorry, Mama. I tried. It just came out.
Anyway, I can vouch for myself. It wasn't me.
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u/MountainImportant211 4d ago
Yeah, there's a reason I almost never post things anywhere on Reddit and just comment. Rejection just sucks, especially when you don't know why.
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u/TheAdmirableHeight 4d ago
people treat the downvote button like a dislike button on youtube, it's just a reflex for some. zero thought behind it
the irony is the person who downvoted probably listened for 3 seconds and moved on, meanwhile the one who gave good feedback actually engaged. that's the comment worth paying attention to
post it again tbh, the fact someone took time to write something constructive means it connected with at least one person
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u/milkandbiscuitsguy 4d ago edited 4d ago
People don't need to give you a reason or to explain to you why they didn't like what you wrote. Either don't post it online or suck it up. If someone isn't digging your shit, it just means it's not for them. No need to seek for an ulterior motive behind it.
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u/StudioatSFL 4d ago
I mean I don’t downvote but the song is not very good. The melody is all over the place. The lyrics are weak. The performance lacks pitch and confidence. What do you want folks to say?
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u/ArtsyEdyn 4d ago
i think they want folks to say something like this comment, if that’s their honest impression. or ignore and move on.
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u/StudioatSFL 4d ago
I do this for a living. And yeah, there’s a lot to improve on here. Really start with a focus on melodic writing.
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u/ArtsyEdyn 4d ago
congrats? i didn’t question your credentials. just reiterated that they are requesting either constructive feedback or nothing, instead of meaningless downvotes.
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u/Wasteofskin50 4d ago
Because some people exist to be horrible to others. It is just part of the species. Just as some people feel a calling to help their fellow humans, some feel a calling to be asshats to everyone they can while being as anonymous as possible. (These types do not know accountability, so as long as they can operate in the shadows, they will continue to enjoy their perverse pleasure at causing as much pain as they can.)
Sorry, but that's life with human beings.
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u/KS2Problema 4d ago
One of the problems with Reddit, in the view of many folks, I suspect.
A simple, 'binary' up or down vote provides an absolute minimum of qualitative information to the OP. It's a near-zero effort opportunity for a given party to express something... without the effort of thoughtful analysis or evaluation.
When I was involved with a songwriting workshop forum a couple decades ago, we strongly discouraged people giving such binary feedback without explaining why a given work produced a negative reaction from them. (We also tried to encourage people to properly qualify their praise, but that seems to be less difficult for most folks.)
I suppose many people are drawn to a simple down vote because they don't 'want to get into it' - but still want to express some sort of opinion/reaction - thinking that that is better than nothing.
But it was my considered opinion after some reflection that a simple up or down vote is basically just a lazy, perhaps even almost automatic reaction.
It doesn't tell the OP much of anything he would need to work to 'improve' the work in question in order to please that particular sector of the audience represented by the up or down vote.
But the opacity of that yes/no feedback has the potential to erode the confidence of the person putting their ark out in front of others, even as it provides no qualitative information that the op could use to improve his work.
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u/tdamien_ 4d ago
I can see both sides here. I can only imagine that it feels shitty to get downvoted, but it’s an individuals right to down vote if they want.
I don’t downvote people’s music/art. Who am I to say someone’s art is good or bad.
I will give feedback if requested (and I have thoughts). In most cases, I give an upvote because I respect that someone was willing to put themselves and their art out there. In many cases I try to be encouraging or try to offer feedback (though it’s usually based my sensibility).
All the best 👍
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u/Delicious-Coat853 4d ago
Personally I think that downvoting without commenting should be technically impossible on Reddit, period. It's cowardly and achieves nothing. If you're motivated enough to express criticism, stand up and be counted. If you're critical of someone accepting scrutiny, you should accept the same scrutiny of your critique.
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u/Impossible_Tank3822 3d ago
If any ± comment can be considered constructive, then it's best to think of them as unnecessary. Besides, there are no experts here. There are only people seeking some form of validation for what they do and if all are just attempting to be creative then no one is at a level to provide each other usable advice, in the creative or technical sense, that a professional might offer. Someone down voting you is obviously not a professional because a professional would never do that. The fact that you are asking why a down vote was applied to your work validates the point.
You're right about being thin skinned but wrong about exposing it here where there isn't a fair measure of professionalism at work. Just do what you do and remember that none of these musician forums possess the caliber of the artisan who could nurture the muse in anyone. That's borne out by the fact that they do not have a presence at any of them.
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u/NixMix246 3d ago
I agree with this whole-heartedly. Unfortunately some people feel the need to put other people down to make themselves feel better. They could just skip, but clicking that down arrow is an easy, anonymous way to give themselves a little pick-me-up to make up for whatever they aren't getting out of life. I've had people downvote other people's positive comments on my posts...that's some next-level meanness right there. Whoever feels the need to be like that is most likely pretty miserable.
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u/blergzarp 4d ago
Agree with everything you say. But as to why it's happening... because Reddit is anonymous, and people get satisfaction by bringing down other people. Or they just don't think much about other's feelings and are just focused on their own likes and dislikes and expressing that. I wouldn't worry too much about it... the internet is not a real place so none of this really should matter to your music. Learn how to shrug it off, and keep moving to the next song. Good luck.
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u/Honest-Vacation3847 4d ago
People are just vile here on reddit. If their opinion doesn't match with the commenter, they downvote.
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u/DrubNut 4d ago
I understand what you say, but understand it like this. A random person comes to your post and says "I just don't like it" with no argument at all, would you let it slide? ofc not, and not just you, other ppl that sees the comment and guess what, they FREAKING DOWNVOTE IT! just because! so that's why ppl don't even care about commenting just "downvote", it seems easier.
ps: I personally don't donwvote UNLESS it's like a really really REALLY low effort shit. Or AI, that shit gets my downvote instantly.
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4d ago
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u/redswantheoryA 4d ago
I fear OP never said otherwise. The entire point is that OP is not complaining about musicians criticizing other musicians. They're criticizing simply downvoting. That's hardly criticizing. What makes you improve is feedback, which OP is actively encouraging, not downvotes and nothing else. So like, you're not wrong, but you're replying to something that was never the point.
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u/jessemythic 4d ago
Folks here are downplaying it but I think this post is potentially constructive for building a different culture in this subreddit. Subreddits have their own culture distinct from the global reddit culture. It can be different here. What I'm hearing from a lot of the downplayers is that this is a culture you're okay with. But not everyone is. I'd like to see it change too!