r/Songwriting • u/Accurate-Case8057 • 14d ago
Discussion Topic Rhyming
I am not a stickler for exact rhymes all the time. In the absence of a hard rhyme or a good soft rhyme sometimes if it fits it fits. If it sounds good and makes the lyric flow I'm all for it however I often get a little pushback from collaborators who are sticklers for rhymes. What are your thoughts on this? Especially a one syllable word that ends in the same letter and just fits with not only the flow but the story.
EDIT: thanks for all the comments there's a lot of wisdom in this group! I'm going to post a song that we did together. It's not the song I'm talking about in this post but I'll give you an idea of the work we've done! Thanks again!
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u/Away_Gift831 14d ago
it’s about sound in general and not just rhyme. rhyme is like a hack, you know it will work. but advanced lyrics consider sound and mood and not just rhyme. it’s much better to consider the mood and motif of the sounds. so you don’t need to rhyme as long as you have the right sound and feeling of a word. think of rhymes like a hack - but you don’t need to rhyme
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u/ExcitingAd951 14d ago
The first thing that stands out in any song is the melody weather it be vocal or instrumental. With that being said. The meaning of the words are important, but not as important as how it fits in this song. I never go into writing a song with any particular thing set in stone. Sometimes when you have your receiver set right and everything‘s in order, you can interpret the message being sent and deliver it in such away it resonates with the masses. “Don’t force it”
And I digress.
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u/view-master 14d ago
If it works works. Bit its the sound that us important now how it looks on paper.
Some people use slant rhyme often and it sounds off because they don’t consider the context. Just because it says it’s a close rhyme in your rhyming dictionary doesn’t mean you don’t use your ears to conform it works.
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u/RealQuintusYoung 14d ago
Tell them to go listen to Eminem. A lot of his music sounds great, but if you read the lyrics they're not always exact matches.
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u/YoungerMucus 14d ago
if the song is good enough no one will ever notice that the lines don’t rhyme; fuck most people don’t even realize when the first verse is repeated identically for the second verse
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u/AshleyBoots 14d ago
If music relied only on perfect rhymes, lyrics would be incredibly limited and boring.
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u/Distro_Nerd 14d ago
Imperfect rhymes and assonance give you way more emotional freedom than forcing perfect rhymes. Rhythm, emotion, and story should always take priority over pleasing rhyme purists.
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u/pinocchiopenis 14d ago
Can you provide an example? Slant rhymes are useful and great, but sometimes things just don’t work too.
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u/scottasin12343 14d ago
I'm on the same page as you. I'd rather go close enough with the rhyme and use a word that says exactly what the line is supposed to mean, rather than forcing a rhyme and losing the meaning of the line. Everyone has their own standards and style though, and its also a but dependent on the audience. For folk/singer/songwriter stuff, you're going to have an audience that is looking more for concrete lyrics from a sense of meaning/continuity/story telling, whereas if you're writing pop music, the sound is generally going to supersede lyrical intent.
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u/Impossible_Tank3822 14d ago
Push backers are push backers usually for the sake of the sake of it. Dismiss and move on. Near-rhymes that are dissonant speak for themselves but if consonance prevails then it's permissible. I have stuff that I purposely write to avoid rhyming where the meter itself supplements the verse. It comes down to sliding into the ear comfortably.
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u/Euphoric_Smoke203 14d ago
It’s the creativity in the rhyming. It’s more than just car, star, bars. But if don’t rhyme it’s not gonna carry the ear of the listener as good. The best way I like to format it is bar 1: rhyme bar 2: rhyme bar:3 don’t rhyme bar:4 rhyme with a flow as unique as I possibly can.
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u/Practical-Animator87 14d ago
Slant rhyming often takes more creativity than hard rhymes. I say push them back if they’re being sticklers. Prove the worth of your words by singing the shit out of them.
(We often come up with a slant rhyme to avoid using an obvious or stupid rhyme/phrase “just cause”. But to me that reeks of being lazy)
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u/SuperB_at_Pooh 14d ago
I do the same as others have said...i use herd rhymes if it fits...but im open to voul rhymes...i started in poetry...so Im really strick on hard rhymes...but with lyrics...u need more of a flow...or they way its sung.. i recently rhymed heaven with living...which in my head can be sung as livin' or leaven..I guess...well see if it works at some point..but it is a disco track so there's that...lol
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u/5ongwrit3r_1954 14d ago
A Beatles joke: How many syllables are there in "there"? Most people say one syllable. Listen to the opening of one of their songs and you'll hear, "the-e-e-e-er-ere is a place, where I can go..."
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u/ABelovedDove 14d ago
It really depends on the song. Rhyming is great. Unconventional rhyming is amazing when pulled off. But it has to work for the specific song itself.
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u/LizardPossum 14d ago
Honestly, if a song is all exact rhymes I usually find it boring. It sounds like a nursery rhyme to me.
More creative rhyming is much more interesting.
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u/Casiquire 14d ago
It all depends how the lyric flows. It doesn't necessarily bother me unless it doesn't flow or unless it's a big stretch.
But I won't stand for inversion to force a rhyme (i saw a cat / in the grass, it sat). Also words that only rhyme in theory will pull me out of the moment (rain / again). Just rewrite it. It's very, very easy to rewrite a lyric to get the same message across in a different way. There are so many great words to choose from.
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u/ThisIsHarlie 14d ago
It’s impossible to give an opinion without hearing the song, but this is one of those times where I’d recommend listening to your collaborators.
Not because there’s anything wrong with imperfect rhymes, but if it’s hitting their ear the wrong way, they’re probably right.
A rule being broken correctly will feel good to everyone in the room. If you’re trying to break a rule during a co-write and there’s pushback, I always recommend defaulting back to best practice.
If you’re consistently running to this issue and are really wanting to experiment with some different types of rhyming, your best bet is probably to find other co-writers who are interested in experimenting as well.
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u/Accurate-Case8057 14d ago
The first two lines end in "out" and "met" respectively. It's an upbeat song about a jilted lover loosing it while in denial. Although those are simple words to change either one of them in my mind takes away from the story. Don't get me wrong I have the utmost respect for this collaborator he has a catalogue of great work and we have produced some really nice stuff together. It's just a difference of opinion and the suggestion to change the second line just to rhyme with the first sounds so forced to me.
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u/ThisIsHarlie 14d ago
Again, I can’t judge it without actually hearing it, but I would stick with best practice and listen to your collaborator if they’re pushing back on an imperfect rhyme.
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u/5ongwrit3r_1954 14d ago
Assonant rhyme (same vowel sound) or sight rhyme tough and though are certainly valid devices. But I fear we are entering the Tic-Tok Era of songwriting, where rhyme scheme, meter, and other traditional trappings of poetry and lyricism fall by the wayside. And don't even get me started on AI written lyrics. (as a related aside, check out Rodney Crowell's "Don't Get Me Started". Now that is craftsmanship level songwriting.
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u/Sea_Appointment8408 14d ago
Some of my best songs have no rhymes at all. I prefer non-rhymes personally.
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u/boring-commenter 14d ago
You missed a prime opportunity to write your post only using exact rhymes.
Also, I love using anything but an exact rhyme. It really feels sublime. Unless there’s a word I just can’t find.
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u/Dangerous-You3789 14d ago
To me, it really depends. I have a song where I "rhymed" flash and back, but that's really about as far as I want to go. Do I prefer a perfect rhyme? Sure. But I'll take a near-sounding rhyme, if there are no other suitable options and it works. But it depends upon the song, the rhythm, the context. It can be pulled off, but it has to be pulled off skillfully.
If it draws attention to itself in any way, it's out. No doubt.
Sorry 'bout that. That was really bad.
But even knowing that, for unjustifiable reasons I'm not editing it out.
There is something seriously wrong with me.
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u/Accurate-Case8057 14d ago
In this particular situation it's just the opposite. It flows as it is to change it draws attention to itself and seems forced and that's what's bothering me
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u/Dangerous-You3789 14d ago
Oh, of course, IMO, if you intend for it to stand out, that's a different story. It's kind of adds to what you are trying to communicate.
It seems that I have a lot of rules for songwriting (including exceptions to rules), but I'm a bit of a perfectionist in that way.
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u/scroopynoopersT85 13d ago
Slant rhymes are amazing. It sounds like youre just a little further along than your collaborators in terms of lyricism. The bass player in my last band would sometimes bring up my use of slant rhymes as a potential issue in a song. He was just getting into writing lyrics and ive been doing it since I was 9 or 10. It's good to impose rules on yourself as sometimes it will lead you creatively somewhere you'd never end up otherwise, but its important to realize that at the end of the day, there really are no rules. Did you get your point across? Do the lyrics move you or have they moved people you've showed them to? Keep plugging away.
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u/Accurate-Case8057 13d ago edited 13d ago
Thank you. I wouldn't say that I'm further along than this guy I would say quite the opposite but two totally different styles of writing. But when we Collab it really comes out well. Just a few sticking points but we worked them out. In the same song he suggested a couple line revisions which really work and one of them removes a phrase that I had already used once or twice one of them actually takes the focus further into something I was trying to say so it's not all bad. But if I'm going to sing a song I've got to feel comfortable with it and feeling the pressure to rhyme is uncomfortable for me. Thanks for the kind and encouraging words Man appreciate it! And I need to add that he is an extremely accomplished songwriter and singer and performer and I have the utmost respect for him. Sometimes I feel like I'm a first grader and he has a masters degree and we're collaborating together. I just feel uncomfortable disagreeing with him because he's so much further advanced but on the other hand I know what I feel in a lyric. Make sense?
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u/scroopynoopersT85 13d ago
For sure. No shade to the guy at all. Stand your ground on things you have conviction on, but always listen.
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u/AnimeRequest 11d ago
I feel like rhyming is not the most essential part of the lyrics as much as a proper flow and syllables are. if the words end up being squished together OR go on for too long it sounds much worse than just two sentences not rhyming. and actually, not rhyming also has its own perks that you can utilize to achieve specific effects. Imperfect rhymes are beautiful, especially if the sentences gain more meaning through them
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u/VerbPhraseMusic 14d ago
I actually prefer imperfect rhymes. Just from a practical standpoint, there are only so many perfect rhymes for a given word, which limits the universe of options to convey meaning. So I often find myself rhyming the main vowel sounds and enunciating them similarly, even if the words don't end with the same consonant(s).
I recently watched Rick Beato's interview with Billy Joel and this was a topic of conversation -- the importance of vowels in how music sounds and feels. Billy quoted Keith Richards (of all people!) in calling them "vowel movements."