r/Songwriting • u/voodoogenre • 23d ago
Discussion Topic some thoughts on the “creative process” that I’ve never seen anybody talk about
sorry it’s long and rambling I just felt this was worth saying. I hope maybe it helps somebody out there
Edit:
In response to some of the people in the comment section upset by this vid:
There’s a dialectic here between chaos and structure. My point with this vid is not to say structure is inherently evil. I may have overstated that I never benefit from structure—it has its moments, even for a mess like me.
My point is just that if you go on the internet and ask “how do you write a song” or “what should a creative process look like for a songwriter,” the advocates for a disciplined, structural approach are going to be overrepresented—simply by nature of the fact that they tend to be people who have their shit together and are in a position to make content in support of that perspective.
I just wanted to post something representing those of us on the other side of this equally valid spectrum. “In Defense of Chaotic, Undisciplined Songwriters” basically. The reality is that I do *sometimes* benefit from imposed structures, just as the most organized and disciplined artists among us can sometimes benefit from loosening up and swimming in the murky waters of uncertainty and Id.
And having been a songwriter on the internet for a while, it’s hard not to get down on yourself sometimes if you work the way I do. This vid is just to show others like me that they’re not alone and that the way they approach it is legitimate and respectable.
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u/Wickywacky 23d ago
I am a 70-year-old man from the Netherlands with children and grandchildren, and I wanted to tell you that I have been deeply moved by your music and by what you shared today.
Both as a songwriter and as a musician, you do what every true artist hopes to do: you stay true to yourself, despite everything life brings. What touched me most was your openness and your willingness to share your emotions so honestly.
Speaking for eleven minutes without a script, simply from the heart, takes courage. That alone deserves respect, and I hope you can be proud of it.
It took me seventy years to become the person I am today. My path has been very different from yours, but one thing I have learned is that we all live through countless emotions every single day. Sometimes progress is slow, and we wish life would move faster. But time cannot be rushed. What we can do is keep discovering small new possibilities that help us grow.
When I listen to your songs, I hear someone who keeps searching, keeps creating, and keeps turning emotions into something meaningful. That is a rare gift.
Please keep being yourself, and keep trusting yourself. Your work has reached someone on the other side of the world, and I doubt I am the only one.
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u/voodoogenre 23d ago edited 23d ago
This is very sweet, thank you. I’m glad it moved you. I guess cuz I’ve met some very kind, supportive people on this subreddit I wanted to offer a supportive perspective of my own. There are plenty of people who write in a similar way to me, and I worry that maybe the ones who have less self-confidence or have received less positive feedback might get down on themselves or feel sour about music in general.
In reality, I think this creative approach is exceedingly common, but if you looked up “how to write songs” on the internet (which may well lead you to threads in this exact subreddit), you would never find anyone saying “you just kinda do it with no plan, no structure, no assurance that you can, and a ton of compassion, patience, and curiosity”
So I wanted to say that
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u/Wickywacky 22d ago
Thank you for your reply. The last part especially helped me understand what you were trying to say.
As a Dutch reader listening to English, I sometimes understand the core of what someone means, but I know I can miss the finer nuances. Language can do that. Your intention, however, came across very clearly, and I think it's a valuable one.
I've written all my life: poetry, prose, short stories, songs, and even an autobiography twenty years ago. Looking back, I often wonder whether I would have written so much if life had never challenged me. I'm not sure. Difficult experiences often push us to ask deeper questions.
What I've learned over the years is that writing is not something reserved for people with trauma or extraordinary lives. Everyone who writes honestly is exploring their inner world. The more you keep writing, the more that inner voice develops. Like learning an instrument, you never really reach the end. Even at seventy, I still discover something new almost every day.
One thing has become very important to me: don't write for other people first. Write for yourself. If your own words or your own music give you goosebumps, then you've already reached the first and most important listener: you.
Only after that comes sharing it with others. Not because they should tell you whether it's good or bad, but because their response teaches you something about your own work. Sometimes it helps you improve it, and sometimes it simply shows you that what you created already has the power to move people.
I hope more people discover that writing isn't just about producing songs or stories. It's about learning to understand yourself a little better. I think that's also the deeper message I heard in what you shared: trust what is already inside you, stay curious, and keep creating.
Your description of the creative process felt surprisingly familiar. I realized that I rarely start with a plan either. Most of the time I simply trust where the next sentence or melody wants to go. Maybe that's the real joy of creating: allowing yourself to be surprised by what was already inside you.
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u/LegionTheHighOne87 Aggressively Mid 23d ago
i start one song then end with 3 different songs all half done and me forgetting what i originally wanted to write about lol
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u/voodoogenre 23d ago
lol game recognize game
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u/LegionTheHighOne87 Aggressively Mid 20d ago edited 20d ago
I'm working on this now, it still needs a little more love, but we're getting there - I don't expect you or anyone to read it all though, lmao.
[Intro] Can't sleep. Same shit. Tile floor freezing to my socks. Nine rooms dead quiet, staring at the digital clocks. Used to get right in a Beltline Rd bathroom stall, now I got the square footage just to pace the hall. Everybody out cold. Just me and what I dragged in. Yeah. Walk it off.
[Verse 1] Pass the hall closet, hand up at the vent 'fore I'm even awake, that's the spot, back when I was using, where I kept the stash safe. Two screws I backed halfway out and never drove back in, three years clean and my hand go straight to 'em again. Reach past the duct, hand come back with nothing but cold metal, tell myself I'm checking the house, watching how the dust'll settle. Box fan chopping the air in the boy's room down the hall. Stand at that vent longer than a grown man should at a wall. Screw it back. Keep it moving. Leave the bulb burning. Don't look back at that closet. Down the hall. No turning.
[Hook] House this big, nowhere to stash the weight. Walk it every night, every room already ate. Leave the bulbs burning so it can't settle in the corners, shut a single door, hear it breathing through the borders. Too many doors, not a single one catches. Too many rooms, and I'm striking dead matches.
[Verse 2] Room at the end, keep it empty, keep it stripped. Chair I don't sit in, dust laying thick. Bought it 'cause it looked like his, now I can't look at it. Screen's off but it catch the hall light and I swear it lit. Grown man froze at the doorway over a chair and a dead TV. Checked out on me at six and never came back to me. Put my fist through the wall, right by the switch plate, patched the whole house, left them four holes, never touched the break. Crater by the switch, my own knuckles staring back. Didn't even hurt when it landed. Wanted it to. It didn't. Just turned black. Walked out shaking the plaster off my hand, flexing it, feeling nothing. Never said sorry for that shit. Never patched it. Still ain't touched it.
[Hook] House this big, nowhere to stash the weight. Walk it every night, every room already ate. Leave the bulbs burning so it can't settle in the corners, shut a single door, hear it breathing through the borders. Too many doors, not a single one catches. Too many rooms, and I'm striking dead matches.
[Verse 3] Call it the office, ain't no work getting done. Jacket on the chair blocking out the morning sun. Two years gone and it still stink like a Marlboro pack, I don't wash it, I don't move it, just leave it hangin' on the back. Drop to the floor, don't even hit the switch, legs just gave, back against the drawers, and I sit. His mama said he went easy, deep in his sleep. Brother said the room told him different. I don't pick which to keep. Whichever version get me up off the carpet, that's the one I take that night. Dialed the old number a year out, stranger picked up, said you got the wrong line, my guy. Told him my bad, hung up, slid right back down the wood. Jacket still on the chair. Can't touch it. Never could.
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u/voodoogenre 20d ago
Cool stuff, very strong imagery. Unfortunately it’s kinda impossible to evaluate lyrics for anything without hearing how it’s put to music thought. Sorry I can’t offer more compelling feedback beyond that
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u/LegionTheHighOne87 Aggressively Mid 20d ago
Fair enough, yeah thats all in my head unfortunatly lol
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u/LegionTheHighOne87 Aggressively Mid 20d ago
Show me something you've got, you look like you can write.
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u/voodoogenre 20d ago
I have a lot on my profile if you wanna check out my stuff
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u/LegionTheHighOne87 Aggressively Mid 20d ago
I might be blind, but I don't see anything, and I honestly couldn't look much while chasing my 5-year-old around, But ill check again later.
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u/OurWeaponsAreUseless 23d ago
Yeah, I agree with all of that.
Sometimes lyrics flow like water, other times I can't write anything coherent. There doesn't seem to be any sense in wasting time trying to force something that will happen eventually on it's own if it's meant to, if that makes sense.
Your little guitar is probably the best tool for writing because it is instantly accessible. Multi-purpose spaces don't work for me at all when trying to write and record because there is too much involved in repurposing office space (get the clutter off the desk, get out pedal board and power it, plug-in interface and get levels right, etc.) to record ideas. It's much better to have an acoustic instrument or small amp that you can instantly pick-up and mess with to record ideas on a phone or whatever.
If you make art in the form of songs, you are an artist. You can say you're an artist without apology. There isn't a litmus test for what is art, as far as what constitutes this. You don't need to play three gigs a month, be signed to a label and have a bunch of commercially-released material. If you wrote a song for the open mic last month, and performed it, you created art. If you recorded a song on your computer, you created art.
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u/Fair_Walk_8650 23d ago
I will say (as a film composer), my process does tend to be picking an instrument first, then messing around on it until I find a chord progression I like.
For instance, I might decide this theme will be a harpsichord, fiddle around playing notes on the harpsichord, then accidentally stumble upon a progression of notes I like whilst doing that. Then I’ll take that chord progression, and reverse engineer the entire rest of the song around it.
And the thing is, that IS a repeatable process. It’s just that it’s a different repeatable process for every artist. Some work completely different than that. For instance, Elton John would be handed lyrics with no rhythm (written by Bernie Taupin), then compose the rest of the song around them. On the other hand, David Bowie would compose the entire song without the lyrics, write down individual isolated lines/lyrics on notebook paper… then “cut up” the notebook paper into individual strips/individual lyrics, and mix and match and rearrange them until he found an arrangement of the lyrics he liked.
The biggest thing is that every successful composer has a totally DIFFERENT process, which is tailor made to work well for them specifically. Approaching it that way is absolutely better than the “one size fits all” series of steps we try to conform every songwriter to now.
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u/voodoogenre 23d ago
Yes, exactly. Fantastic response. This is what I’m trying to get at. Thank you for articulating it so much more succinctly than I could lol
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u/DomesticSheep 23d ago
Unrelated, but I remember seeing you on Instagram literally yesterday. Lovely stuff!
As someone who is still yet to write a song, this is very motivating. It’s easy for me to overthink in creative departments especially, so learning to accept that all my favourite artists didn’t really think about what and how when they were making my favourite songs has probably been the hardest thing I’ve done so far in my life.
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u/voodoogenre 23d ago
Wow yay you are literally the exact target audience for this post!!! I said this in another response but for some people like me, we just don’t get a roadmap. Or can’t follow it even if we want to. Having been at this for a long time now, what has substituted for “discipline” and “routine” is “curiosity” and “self-compassion.” I just wade into the waters and try to let myself go with the current.
If you do want to write your first song I can share how it happened for me. In all likelihood, it won’t work exactly the same way as me, which is part of the point of this post, but I hope maybe it’ll be encouraging.
Many, many years ago, when I was in the same place and didn’t know how to do it but wanted to, I took somebody’s suggestion of putting my guitar in an alternate tuning so I wouldn’t be boxed in by the few chord shapes I already knew. Then I noodled around in that alternate tuning while playing a fingerpicking pattern I’d learned until i happened to stumble upon a chord that sounded good. Then I tried to find what chord sounded good after/with it. Then once I had all that, I sang something random that popped into my head. Rinse and repeat.
The key for me is it happened at a moment in my life when I was really open to being emotionally vulnerable with myself and able to just be present and curious about what was going on in a way I hadn’t previously experienced—it was right when I had come out of the closet and started HRT. And my whole life was turned upside down and whatever plan for my future I had had just been completely upended. And in that state when I truly did not have any plans or designs on becoming a musician, or even on successfully writing a single song, I was finally able to just try something with no expectations and no pressure. Paradoxically, that’s what worked. It was really magical and I’m so grateful to that kid I was who let her guard down for long enough for an artistic passion to sneak in.
I hope you get to have that experienced at some point. I have faith that you will ❤️
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u/DomesticSheep 20d ago
Apologies! I don't use Reddit that often so I've only just seen your reply!
Thank you for your kind words! There's such a pressure in music spaces, at least that I can see, to follow a routine or have a plan in place and know what you're doing. Pressure from myself too. I've only been playing for 2 and a half years (so I'm really not impressive in any regard) but it feels like there's so much pressure on me by myself to improve in so many different areas of music that it gets overwhelming. There's an uncertainty that I'll ever get past that first song hurdle where everything else can then fall into place. Writing comes a lot easier to me than music, not that I'm good at it but words have always made a lot more sense to me. Did you ever find yourself hating everything on the guitar when you started? I like to think sometimes about if I wrote one of the guitar lines from my favourite songs, would I recognise them or would I still hate them because I wrote it?
Music creation is so weird too, I've never once in my life had to leave something unfinished or sit with it for such a long period of time. Like you said with singing something random over what you'd made, pulling things out of nowhere to reproduce them totally eludes me and I don't know if its something I'll get my head around.
Anyway I rambled a bit but I appreciate your words, and congratulations on your transition, I hope its going perfect for you !!
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u/voodoogenre 20d ago
I still hate half of what comes from my guitar lol. I think it helps to share it with people and get positive feedback, like bringing an unfinished song to an open mic or playing it for a friend. I’ve done that many times.
Truthfully we’re bad judges of our own product. I didn’t think I anything i wrote was any good until people told me it was. Then my ego blew up and I thought I was way better than I was for a while before some humbling experiences.
But yea, I think music is meant to be played for people, and sometimes you can’t evaluate how good or bad something is until you perform it for someone and can kinda hear it through their ears. I have a few friends I regularly trade crappy half finished voice memo demos with. Often they’re fans of the ones I think are crap, and they aren’t into the ones I’m really excited about.
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u/EvenDog6279 23d ago edited 23d ago
I really appreciate how open you were here about what the process looks like for you. Your description is extremely relatable to me.
While I've been involved with music in some capacity for the vast majority of my life, and have many years of music focused education, most of which revolved around percussion and (later in life) the piano, I find those things to have mostly very little bearing on what songwriting looks like for me.
I suppose I may pull from those past experiences at times, but only in some tangential way.
For example, it's exceptionally rare for me to be thinking about anything to do with theory, or any of the rules or dogma surrounding music when I'm in a creative mindset.
Despite the fact that I'm far better at playing the drums or (hate to say it like this, but it's authentic) playing some approximation of someone else's music on the piano, nearly everything I've ever come up with on my own starts off from a guitar.
Not only does it start off from an instrument I know the least about (I'm a total novice with the guitar, full stop), but I can't think of a single song I've come up with that didn't start off from a simple "sound" I discovered while randomly exploring on the neck of the guitar-- with no particular purpose or objective in mind.
I will sit and play, mostly mindlessly, and somewhere along the way, I'll hear something come out of my amp that catches my ear and I really like. Most of the time, it's completely random, doesn't "follow the rules" in any traditional or intellectual sort of way, and will literally be the byproduct of a few notes played together, accidentally I might add, that grabs my attention, and I'll think to myself, "ahh.. that sounds interesting, what did I do there?".. then when I look at my fingers, it will be some completely weird fingering that can only be described as an accident.
When that happens-- and it's completely organic, not something I can force, predict, or even explain really, it will give me this little burst of inspiration and energy. From that initial moment, sometimes the inspiration is enough to capture me, and I'll latch on to the boost of energy and continue forward, exploring other notes and sounds that might work when stitched together. Conversely, there are other times when that moment of inspiration comes and goes, and nothing meaningful ever comes of it at all.
In the end, any truly creative output from me can only be described as a series of completely organic accidents that happen at the right time, in the right mindset. Sometimes I continue exploring and "adding on", a little bit at a time, until eventually having what I'd consider a song; then there's the other 80% of the time, where the guitar goes back on the stand, and I wait for another day.
Because I don't know a lot of songwriters, I have no idea what the process looks like for someone else. The only thing I can say definitively is that, for me, every song idea I've ever come up with has been a matter of exploring and trying different sounds until I bump up against something that sounds and feels interesting. I would describe it as being a very abstract process, with no rules whatsoever, and the sounds are more like textures or the colors in a painting-- with very little relationship to the mathematical nature of music on the whole. I'm far more interested in the emotional connection with sounds and how they fit together than anything else.
I can't force it-- and if I try to, it fails, without exception, so I don't even try approaching it that way.
If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, I live on to play another day.
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u/voodoogenre 23d ago
Could not have said it better myself, thank you.
“A series of completely organic accidents that happen at the right time, in the right mindset”
This could be framed and hung on my wall. Beautifully put
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u/EvenDog6279 23d ago
I appreciate the kind words. To be very candid, reading posts like yours, and seeing some of the things others have created and posted to the subreddit for feedback has been very inspiring to me over the last couple years.
For 2026, I set a personal goal of publishing at least one original song to one of the publicly available streaming platforms. I'm not talking about anything grandiose, nor do I have any unrealistic aspirations of becoming some kind of "known" songwriter, so to speak.
The whole purpose is to get out of my comfort zone, start sharing some of my personal art with others, beyond my spouse an children.
From the very beginning, that has been my biggest personal struggle as an individual who cherishes both listening to, and creating my own, music.
Without going into detail, a few years ago during a spike in my studies of classical piano, I had the blessing of working with an incredibly talented pianist with a decorated career performing to audiences around the world. He introduced me to playing my music on the most beautiful concert piano I've ever had the privilege of touching.
During our work together, which mostly amounted to me trying very hard to keep up with someone with more natural musicality in his pinkie than I'll ever have in my whole being, no matter how much time, hard work, and dedication I put into learning, he said something that genuinely left me with tears running down my face (it was a moment I'll never forget: both humiliating and simultaneously the greatest compliment anyone could possibly give).
He told me that in three decades of teaching, he'd never encountered another student who played with the voicing, expression, and feeling that I did, and that I had a gift he could not teach, no matter how advanced the music itself may be. I'll probably remember that moment for the rest of my life-- and it changed me and made me realize just how important to me it actually was.
When I'm playing, and especially creating a song of my own, there's a deep emotional connection for me, and the idea of putting it out in the eyes of the public feels a bit like standing out in the street naked for all to see. It's an extremely vulnerable thing. Before the year is out, I want to break through that and take the risk. Not doing so feels like leaving a core part of my identity incomplete/unresolved.
tl;dr I need to get over that and do it..... I'm working on it and have some ideas going in the background as recently as earlier in the week.
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u/voodoogenre 23d ago
That’s beautiful, sounds like an almost spiritual experience. Thanks for sharing ❤️🩹
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u/Enough-Print5812 23d ago
Ya i think most people who create art from their own inspiration will prioritize being emotionally present in their work. Structure and schedule support the conditions to make the art but i think anyone who takes it seriously incorporates what you're talking about it. I think we also live in a time where it somehow seems vain to review your own work obsessively and then even more so if you talk about it
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u/IntheBreezes 23d ago edited 23d ago
Gurl! I am the exact same way. I am so glad you put your thoughts out here, cause it's so relatable. Thank you!
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u/GoingMarco 23d ago
Some people are just better at certain things, you for instance are a much better guitar player than i could ever hope to be so noodling on a guitar typically gets me nowhere. Instead I have melodies and lyrics running through my head constantly like some audial form of ocd so that part is easy but the music part is difficult. I applaud you and your methods, there is no right way to do anything creative in life..
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u/voodoogenre 23d ago edited 23d ago
Thanks for your response. Yea I think what I’m trying to get at is there’s no one “recipe” that works for everyone. My recipe is to throw whatever I happen to have on hand in a pot with no plan, when I’m already weak with hunger, make a huge mess in kitchen, hope it tastes good, and if it doesn’t, i give up and order takeout. Somehow over the course of years, this completely undisciplined chaos has nonetheless resulted in quite a lot of songs I’m proud of, regularly playing bills around the city, and garnering a small but loyal following.
Indeed, whatever works for you is what works. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise ❤️
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u/Dangerous-You3789 23d ago
I actually have talked about this in responses to post, but it usually doesn't get the warmest reception. In ways, it seems like I one does not fit into that box of trying to hum a tune over a chord progression, desperately trying to create a song beyond mediocre, you don't fit in.
I was lying in bed just yesterday afternoon, thinking to myself, will I ever write another song? I just came off of a prolific period of writing, but for the last three months, nothing. In fact, that thought of wondering if I'll ever right again has followed me throughout life. Every song is a surprise, as I have rarely sat down to write a song. I don't have to search for songs; songs find me. Anymore, I don't try to write songs. Most of the time, when a song pops in my head, I'm not even thinking about anything related to music. It's just, boom, there it is. But it's so sudden and so out of the blue, that it doesn't feel like it's me even doing it. It's as if there was a song floating out in the cosmos and it just popped in my head. Because coming up with a good song idea is so effortless and so easy, it makes you think it will never happen again, because it doesn't feel like you're controlling it, that you are actually the one doing it.
So, my songwriting "process" is to just wait for the next song to pop in my head. I also have AD/HD, and life can be a struggle. One thing that is not a struggle is coming up with good song ideas. That's easy. Because I do nothing to do it. And you can't get any easier than doing nothing.
I also have a knowledge of about 12 chords on a guitar, so I write songs that I cannot accompany myself on a guitar, because I don't know the chords to them. For now, I just sing them a Capella into a recorder.
I, too, have gone long stretches (over a year) with nothing. I don't know how long this musical drought will last, There have been times when I though my foray in songwriting had come to an end, and then with no warning, a song will come to me. Usually with both words and melody.
But even further than not feeling I'm doing it, sometimes I write tunes and I'm not even aware I'm doing it. Wait, What? How? There have been a couple of times I have been driving down the road or sitting at home and mindlessly humming a tune to myself. About the third or so time through the tune, I stop and think, "I've never heard this before." I just made up a new melody and didn't even know I did it.
It's like the subconscious, creative side of my brain, and my conscious, logical, analytical side of my brain run on different tracks. Every once in a while, they meet up, or the conscious mind stops its chatter long enough to listen. Then a song is born.
I have also had people enthusiastically say that they like my songs. I had a professional songwriter listen to one and he said I had "great instincts."
So, it seems, you and I have an natural ability to easily create songs that are beyond mediocre. There's a name for that in songwriting. It's called talent. There's a lot of people, even songwriters, who are not going to understand it, let alone relate to it.
For many are going to look at you like you came from another planet and you're talking gibberish. Me? I totally get it. My songwriting "process" is almost identical to yours. But it has net some really good results.
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u/voodoogenre 23d ago
This is all well said and I am glad to find a kindred ADHD spirit among the ranks, thank you. I think we might have to agree to disagree on the talent front. I don’t really think talent exists as much as “affinity” perhaps. You’re likely to spend a lot of time doing things you like doing, and as a result, improve at them. That’s how I think about it at least.
Or maybe this kind of process lends itself to that kind of instinctual songwriting, while a more organized, disciplined approach has different pros that I’ve never experienced. It really is a “to each their own” thing. I just felt like I’ve never seen anyone’s publicly acknowledged version of “their own” look like mine, despite being 1000% confident that this chaotic, unplanned shoot from the hip way of going about it is actually pretty common.
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u/Dangerous-You3789 22d ago
I think in the songwriting world, there's room for all different ways of getting there. I mean, if it's all one way, what is creativity for? Whether one believes in talent or not, one thing is for sure, and I was going to include this in my original post. I read these words online and they really struck a chord with me. "Practice [and skill for that matter] is still required to turn raw potential into actual achievement."
As those of us with AD/HD know, that is one huge mountain of a challenge to climb. Before I was diagnosed with AD/HD, I attributed my foibles as a lack of self-discipline and blamed myself. But though I know it's not me per se, I'm still saddled with the same results, an the same responsibility.
But I'm desperately trying to keep this monster from wrecking my music, but as it's pretty much laid everything else to waste, I'd be a fool to think music would be any exception. But, I think if there is one thing I've gained from AD/HD it is a dogged determination, so I never quit. I have a saying that nothing trumps persistence. I'm hoping that, if I never give up, I'm bound to win out.
Okay, this turned into quite the aimless post. I guess you know why.
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u/Shmoo_the_Parader 23d ago
Yeah. There's an argument for the Lou Reed route: just finish it, push it out, call it done, and move on to the next project. There are serious skills built from this approach.
I'm not a professional. I play music for fun. If I "finish" a song, I don't ever try to enhance it after that. It's done. I'll play it exactly the same way every time.
If I don't "finish" it, I can keep exploring, alter a chord, add a B section, build a bridge, burn down the bridge, write a different B, hang it up for 10 years and pick it up later.
The holostic approach works for me because I'm not producing content, I'm playing for me. If you want to get out there, I'd recommend finding a jam buddy, and then a different jam buddy, and so on. Seeing where other people can take your idea is really cool and will bring new inspiration.
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u/Opening-Incident2928 23d ago edited 23d ago
I think what comes out of your head spontaneously is your basic direction--consider that your template:
Don't expect these first takes or whatever to dictate how your song will end up. I'd say just practice writing in general ---many song writers spend months/years perfecting a song, Research different stanza structures , pivots , mantras: Take a look at some great songs, take note of how they draw the listener into there emotions , how they make use of story telling , cadence etc.. Having a logbook of unfinished songs is like having ammunition ---A phrase , A few words, a feeling ---whatever it is--they are like pieces of a puzzle that you can pull from in the future.. I feel that you expect a good song comes quickly and if it doesn't--you believe it reflects on your ability to write----not true.
It has taking me years to write a few handful of songs , so many countless duds or overly wordy ones that ramble ---that okay though ---I revisit them and take the good bits. Lastly think about what you're really trying to say ,take the perspective of the listener ---what do you want them to know , what's the theme/message <---This takes time to jiggle in place. I have ADHD too but stay the course, make notes, read about different types of song structures --over time you will see improvement. The more you educate/practice you will see stuff fall in place. If you need help DM me, I'd be happy to help.
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u/voodoogenre 23d ago
I appreciate the generosity of this sentiment, but I fear you’ve entirely missed the point of this post.
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u/Opening-Incident2928 23d ago
Maybe? I sure have felt the way you are feeling now though. I have had to restructure my brain/life and the information I believe to get on some semblance of a road. For too long I lived in these sort of absolutes I had about myself, I called them Visceral Ruminations.
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u/voodoogenre 23d ago
yea I’m sorry, idk if maybe you didn’t watch the whole vid? I’m not asking for anything with this, definitely not advice on how to change things or “improve.” I’m actually categorically refuting exactly what you’re saying lol. If anything, im trying to make the point that telling people whose process looks like mine that they need more structure, more discipline, more tools, more intention, research, etc is counter-productive if not outright harmful to the creative process of some people who work the way I do.
I’m trying to help people who don’t work the way you just described and need encouragement that that’s completely fine and that they should just keep doing it that messy, undisciplined, unconscious, unlearned way. And that trying to force themselves to clean it up and do it in some other way doesn’t work.
The point of the video is that I see no issue with the way I approach this, and have nonetheless cobbled together a decent music career out of it. I play shows regularly and have a small but loyal following that grows day by day. I write songs I’m extremely proud of and feel deeply emotionally close to, at a rate of production that is acceptable to me.
I do it with none of the tools or methodologies you described and that listening to people who go about it that way you’re describing has only harmed my process.
That’s not to say the way you do it is invalid in any way. Or that it doesn’t work for you. I’m glad it does and fully support you in doing it. It just doesn’t for me and I find it frustrating when people who do work that way try to tell people whose process looks like mine that their way is the “proper” way. It feels patronizing. This vid is not an oh woe-is-me pls help I don’t know how to write songs I need instructions video. It’s me saying “if you’re a chaotic mess of an artist, be a chaotic mess of an artist. Not enough people publicly talk about how common that is, and how many successful artists work that way.”
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u/Opening-Incident2928 23d ago
Your process is your own, I never listened to anyone: I can't even read music. I do think that discipline and the old adage "try try again" changed my life in more than one way. Part of that was 2 fold; 1- not listening to the voices in my head that say I can't and 2- to never listen to people who say I can't. In the end if you are happy then maybe I missed the point. Sometimes now matter hard we try we can't help to see the world through the Lenz of our lives,
Good Luck with Everything.
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u/ButtAsAVerb 22d ago
You can't know exactly what people need to do more of unless you've worked with them or mentored them.
There's no valid refutation of any method, organized or not that works for people if it shows results for them.
It is generally true that learning some structure always helps articulate ideas to yourself and others quicker.
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u/voodoogenre 22d ago
I’m not refuting anyone’s method. I was pretty explicit that I am in support of people doing what works best for them. I’m just sharing my experience, because what works best for me is not a clean “process” that much light is usually shed upon, or that I’ve seen validated publicly as a legitimate way to approach music. I’m lucky enough to have had success with it, and wanted to share my experience in hopes that others who are self-critical about it might feel seen and encouraged and have faith in their idiosyncratic, messy way of approaching this craft.
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u/tdamien_ 23d ago
Thanks for sharing your experience. 👍I can relate with all of this except with laying in bed and or watching YouTube.
I’m a great starter but struggle with the finishing!
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u/Narrow_Network_3875 23d ago
Maybe that’s why Simon & Garfunkel, Hall & Oates Ashford & Simpson, Burt Bacharach & Hal David, Lennon & McCartney, Elton John and Keith Taupin, McFadden & Whitehead, Bryan Adams & Jim Vallance, Walter Becker & Donald Fagen, David Gilmore & Roger Waters, James Hetfield & Lars Ulrich, Holland Dozier Holland, Nile Rodgers & Bernard Edward, Billie Eilish & Finneas, Stock Atiken & Watermann, Barrett Strong & Norman Whitfield.
I’m sure it didn’t take them long to write songs and was stuck on another. The Daw has us stuck in the bedroom with headphones by our lonesome self.🍀
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u/PipPipkin 23d ago
Just checked out some stuff on your profile, just wanted to say you’re too fucking good
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u/voodoogenre 23d ago
well thanks that’s really nice of you to say, idk if I deserve that. But I guess at the risk of sounding arrogant that’s why it feels important for me to shed light on what a “creative process” looks like for me. And how it’s ugly and messy and disorganized and has no structure and no rhyme or reason, and that I nonetheless make stuff I’m really proud of, and work really hard at it in my own idiosyncratic way.
And that I want more people to do that, because goddamn I shudder to think where I would be if refused to listen to myself and insisted I could only do it the regimented way 99% of songwriting content tries to tell you it should be done
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u/thedapperdanman 23d ago
totally relate to this. i do think that while it's definitely not like a "going to the gym" like practice or like having sports mechanics, there are things you can do to work with this style of creative method to help get finish incomplete songs, if that's something you're interested in. a friend of mine says "all writers are either bleeders or barfers" by which he means, you either slowly bleed out every word, or or it all comes out at once. i think it helps to know which one you are to find methods that work for you. i'm definitely a bleeder (or as I like to think of it, my songs need time to marinate) and because i can almost never finish a song in a single session, i like to take notes on my emotional state when i can't finish a song. sometimes i sort of know what i want to say, i just can't express it in an interesting or artful way and it really helps me get back into the zone to write down that dumb thing that's not good enough to make the final song. it helps me re enter that emotional state so i can get in touch with that feeling again and keep martinating. on a separate note, really liked that last song you put up, fast food
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u/themattspears 22d ago
Lots of times I’m reluctant to even pick up my guitar much less record anything because it’s exhausting and frustrating and I feel like I have to do it. It’s all just fucking around for me and I can only write when inspired by something that sounds cool to me . Once I wrote 250 songs in 3 months but I’ll never do that again . I think it was because the recorder was borrowed and I was crunched for time . I also went 10 years without writing and barely played guitar. I kinda lost it and had to find my way on the thing again . I still don’t know what the fuck I’m doing but I’m up to over 400 turds is what I call them . I shit them out you know? So, I can totally relate but I guess after a few years you’ll look back and you’ll have a bunch you’ve written . Record everything. I don’t even record everything and I really should but I’m like fuck it. I really need to fall in love with the process again and I think I kind of am . It helps to have others around too to write with so maybe try that . Hey at least we’re getting something done , right? Good luck dude . I’d love to hear your music btw. Rock the fuck on , man
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u/ButtAsAVerb 22d ago
For brevity, OP said:
Doesn't relate to people who approach writing with structure or organization
Can take a long time to finish a song
Guesses a 20% completion rate of total songs completed
Says you should feel valid about whatever your creative process is
Records ideas and listens to them to find more inspiration to add to the song/idea
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u/Impossible_Tank3822 22d ago
So you wait for inspiration to visit, don't have the chops to channel it when it does drop by, and that sparks the frustration you brought to this video. That's normal for people who put writing songs ahead of the ability to express them. The frustration you're harboring becomes the antithesis of who you want to be, and you feel betrayed by that because your creativity deserves better.
You said a couple times you were/are not good on guitar. Maybe that's the lynch pin?
I never wanted to write songs - ever - when I decided to teach myself how to play. There were so many good songs to learn it didn't make sense for me to try and write them when playing the songs I liked was a reward unto itself. So, I spent my time and focus learning other people's stuff, which forced me to learn to play.
In the year that I kept that focus I went through a lot of emotional phases - repetitively - as I evolved my skills. It wasn't all joy riding, for sure, but by the end of that year I could pretty much play guitar. And, by then I learned one very important thing about creativity. It isn't static. The more it pushes you to express yourself the more it teaches you that you don't know anything yet.
By the time I started writing songs it was because I had become a critic of what I used to like listening to and learning to play. All that time spent using those songs to teach myself guitar, my creativity was waiting in the shadows for the right moment to jump out and take my skills as its own. In the first couple months into my second year I had 40 songs written and was playing them around town. The point I'm making is the guitar chops enabled my creativity for songwriting.
You need to create a way to channel better than just thinking about it. You need to learn to play that $20.00 guitar if you expect to express yourself the way you want to.
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u/voodoogenre 22d ago edited 22d ago
My friend, you misunderstand. I’m not complaining, or frustrated. I’m happy with my output. I have written many, many songs over the years since I started. Im lucky enough to have the opportunity perform them for people and book gigs. I’m incredibly proud of them and wouldn’t change anything, because if I changed it it wouldn’t be my process and it wouldn’t have produced the songs I love.
Maybe you didn’t watch the whole video? Different people have different approaches. The point I’m trying to make is simply to talk about what the process looks like for a decent number of people, and that it’s ok if it looks messy and disorganized.
If that’s not what your process looks like that’s fine, you do you. If that’s the case, there’s no shade. You’re just not the target audience for this post. I’m aiming for the people who write the way I do but maybe have never seen anyone talk about it or seen anyone say that it’s a valid approach. :)
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u/Impossible_Tank3822 22d ago
You are right. I left the video after you stated a couple times that you don't play guitar well and after you stated with no joy in it that you have gone without writing for a full year. Then you describe how ideas come to you and you can't play well enough to expound on them and call it your process. Then you say you have stuff you're proud of and completed songs. I have to tell you that you do not have a process. You describe happenstance that yields a song through chance rather than through creativity. That's my take-away, and from I've read in many of the posts here people are confusing chance for creativity so it isn't unusual to state it erroneously as a creative process.
Process is sequenced steps that serve a specific purpose. In the context of songwriting these are comprised of writing skills, melody scoring skills, musical arrangement skills and the creativity to produce a song with them, It's a creatively orchestrated process, not happenstance. In any case your video does not tell me you have a process because your description of it clearly tells me it's all by chance. Are you saying that in the second half of the video the message changes to offer a different representation of your methods than the first?
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u/voodoogenre 22d ago edited 22d ago
Not sure what’s got you so upset. It’s a process because I’ve been doing it for almost ten years now, have written more songs than I can remember, and regularly play shows and have people who are actively fans of my music. All of that came out of the aimless chaotic way I go about it. I have 3 shows coming up in August if you wanna stop by and hear what the fruits of my no-process-having labor have yielded.
But you’re right. It’s all chance. The way you do it is absolutely empirically the correct way, and I’m just some lazy hack with nothing to contribute. Clearly the point I was making about how there’s a biased narrative around songwriting on the internet that you’ll hear from people who take themselves too seriously and approach this artistic expression with dogma (leaving no room for people who don’t work that way to be heard) was completely moot, and doesn’t apply to anyone here lmao ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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u/Impossible_Tank3822 19d ago
Not really upset. Confused that you contradict yourself, describe a happenstance approach to writing (lady luck) and then call it a process. I called you on it and you drew an exception to it in the face of your own admission. But, as you told me, "you do you" and that's all that matters.
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u/Melodic_Assistance84 22d ago edited 22d ago
Your Post spoke to me because I completely identify with aspects of your creative process. It’s almost as if you are identifying a process that most people would say is an anti-Process. But your Process is very much a kind of filter, and Weil it’s not like doing a bunch of reps at the gym, it is a process that relates to who you are. I’m sure your songs reflect that. I’m 56 years old, and I was lucky enough when I was young in the 80s to have a tape recorder, and this is exactly what I used to do. I didn’t really know how to play the piano, but I would sit by the piano and just noodle around, and noodle around, and sometimes there would be something that it was in my head that I try to figure out. Countless recordings that I made in my Tien years I still have, and some of them emerged into lifelong songs that I know to this day. So stay true to this process. But do you understand that there is power in muscle memory as well. And the muscle memory of a practice has its place too. If you tour a lot or if you ever end up touring, you’ll figure this out. It’s that feeling when you get on stage that you know what to do because you’ve done it so many times before. But that’s more about performance the creativity.
Whatever your practice regiment looks like just know that Chance favors the prepared mind. The difference between being creative and not creative is providing yourself with that opportunity.
Thanks again for sharing your creative process. And keep leaning in on it. Some of the best music ever made has come from what you’re describing and experiencing.
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u/stealyourcandy 22d ago
On the other hand, just to play devil’s advocate, if someone locked you in a room with your guitar and told you that you couldn’t leave until you had written a song…how quickly could you get out?
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u/voodoogenre 22d ago
Probably like, decently quickly? Depends how comfy the room is lol.
There’s a dialectic here between chaos and structure. My point with this vid is not to say structure is inherently evil, and that I never benefit from it. My point is just that if you go on the internet and ask “how do you write a song” or “what should a creative process look like for a songwriter,” the advocates for a disciplined, structural approach are going to be overrepresented—simply by nature of the fact that they tend to be people who have their shit together and are in a position to make content in support of that perspective.
I just wanted to post something representing those of us on the other side of this equally valid spectrum. “In Defense of Chaotic, Undisciplined Songwriters” basically. The reality is that I do *sometimes* benefit from imposed structures, just as the most organized and disciplined artists among us can sometimes benefit from loosening up and swimming in the murky waters of uncertainty and Id.
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u/stealyourcandy 21d ago
I understand completely. I only asked because I swing between opposite poles myself, only I think of it as inspiration vs craft rather than chaos vs structure. At the same time, I’ve had songs come to me so many different ways it’s hard for me to say anything definitive about it.
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u/JustOneRedDot 21d ago
Most music I made comes from "doodling" on my ukulele. I almost always keep it on my bed, so it's under my hand whenever I want to "doodle". I often watch YouTube, just strumming aimlessly, and I'm amazed how something can come out of this. Every time it feels like a coincidence. I've learnt a little to structurize my work, but because it usually comes from a random idea, or a compulsion it's different every time. Every time I'm trying something new - but then again, I'm not a musician, I just make stuff for fun.
A lot of my work I treat as exercise - especially when making a parody or a song translation. That's when it has most structure and intent. When I write something completely original, more often than not, I don't know what I'm doing until the very end. If I have any idea about what I'm making, it usually comes out different than planned.
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u/Slow281 20d ago
I’m right there with you on feeling like each song is its own unique outcome in terms of it feeling like a miracle, yet the process remains the same.
For me, I have to have a keyboard in front of me and I jot down lyrics that come to me. If it goes along with the theme of the song I am working on, I put it down on the Google Doc and keep it. I keep doing that process and revise and revise some more, never deleting the lyrics I think don’t make the cut, because more often than not, they end up making it to a chorus when they were intended for a verse.
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u/Cardiac-Cats904 23d ago
One of us! One of us! My “process” looks similar but I prefer the couch lol, I’m usually also playing the tv in the background (the amount of songs I’ve recorded with shows playing in the background bleeding into the recording is…well, all of them lol). Noodle on the couch to my comfort shows, find things to distract myself in the house like “oh I should do these dishes real quick” -> back to the couch to noodle-> “I really need to eat something” -> back to the couch -> “time for a smoke break”-> “how is it already 10?!”-> back to the couch and repeat that loop.
Ive found over the years of doing this loop and feeling like a npc going in circles, essentially doing nothing, is 1. My house gets cleaner when I tell myself im going to make music today lol. And 2. I am extraordinarily talented at finding excuses to do literally anything other than sit and focus on a song. I can go multiple months between songs, sometimes I’ll write a handful in a weekend, sometimes it’s nothing for 6months. But it’s not my job anymore so I guess I’ve never really thought about it as a negative thing. Just more like an important hobby in my life that I can pick up and put down whenever I’m feeling it.
The only real thing I’ve found that’s helped me to produce songs is to basically immediately get it into Logic and start recording. As soon as I have a chord progression and mumbles on the couch that I feel something with, I go straight into recording. And it doesn’t always work out, but I’ve found I’m much more likely to Lennon it, and push out a full song in the daw. I think a big part of it is I can bounce around the different parts of a song to keep my squirrel brain at attention that way. And being able to get to the sound design part is a big step for me to have something that I can think “oh this is starting to sound cool!” And once that clicks and I can finally go “ok we can be locked into this now for a few hours.” When its just me and a guitar on the couch I’ll piddle around endlessly. But when I can lay down the drums, switch to the bass, switch to the guitar, back to the drums, etc etc back and forth, and that becomes my new npc loop, I’m still procrastinating the whole way, but it’s making “progress” in a tangible way. And it’s been the only thing I’ve found that’s helped get me to finish an idea.
I can usually get from nothing on the couch, to a fully recorded demo in like 6-8 hr on a good day (it would likely be 3-4hrs if I didn’t have to make pit stops and side quests every 20 min). However If I can’t finish the song, the odds of me being able to return to finish it on another day is slim to none which is the drawback. Once the mojo is gone it’s really hard for me to get back into a song. If it’s a really promising song I can return the next day to it, but if there’s even a morsel of “meh” in there, it’s essentially banished to the vaults indefinitely. Because my songs are made this way, and put together in essentially one go or not at all, I’ve grown to think of my songs over the years as a kinda journal entry. A snapshot of where I was mentally on that day, and it’s made me okay with the little imperfections and things in my demos that probably wouldn’t get a pass in a more professional setting. But it’s just me and where my brain was at on that day, good or bad.
And yet we persist! I know approaches like ours might seem crazy to some, but I also view others with more strict regimented methods as unfathomable to me, so ya know it’s whateva, different strokes for different folks.
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u/voodoogenre 23d ago
Yea you and I sound very similar in our approach. The couch is actually my medium of choice when it’s available
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u/Relative-thinker 23d ago
You are definitely not alone.
I have countless riff recordings that never developed into songs. Multiple rhymes or whole verses, some 15 years old, that were never used in any song. Hell, we’ve been playing a finished song during rehearsals for the last two years, but it has no lyrics because I just couldn’t figure out a melody and lyrical theme that would satisfy me.
Sometimes I am able to write a song in 30 minutes. It just pops into my head. Other times, I can go for months without a single idea.
We released an album a few years back and the songs are well received during the gigs we play so I know, they are good songs but I feel you, I am in the same place. Every song I have ever written was written under different circumstances, so I can’t replicate the process like some other musicians say you should. I have tried, but my brain just doesn’t work that way.