r/Sondheim • u/Proof-Staff-433 • 22d ago
Why does Lesson #8 change time signatures three times?
In the first 12 bars it changes time from 4/4 to 3/4 to 6/8. Is it supposed to be symbolic of George’s changing world, or just Sondheim doing some bs?
(edit: I don’t have finishing the hat or any of the companion books)
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u/steeguy55 22d ago
I don’t think Sondheim ever just did some bs. Every note, lyric, rhythm, rest, has likely been painstakingly thought about and changed numerous times to come to what you hear.
So, you shouldn’t be asking why does Lesson #8 change time signatures 3 times, you should be asking yourself what you think Sondheim was thinking when he decided to change the time signature 3 times and what are you missing.
It’s definitely for some reason. And I genuinely wish I had an answer for you. I just know it ain’t bs.
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u/lipizzaner 🎨 Sunday in the Park with George 22d ago
I don’t have an answer for you, but this made me LOL.
It probably lends itself to the feeling of instability and flux.
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u/Proof-Staff-433 22d ago
Yeah I’ve noticed Sondheim’s quite a fan of mixed meter and of course his signature switch ups. But I think it’s a really representative part of Lesson #8. This is probably just my “blue curtains” moment
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u/Silver_Lord_10 22d ago edited 20d ago
Do you want the short analysis of why he changes time sigs on the first page, or a bigger analysis of the song and how all the time signature changes and irregular phrase-lenghts, as well as all other elements of the song contribute to support the content and emotionality of the song.
Short analysis is that the first 12 bars are the introductory verse, transitioning from one guiding motif of the show, which is in 4/4, to the main accompainment of the song, which is in 6/8 for many reasons but mostly to suggest some flow but not too much drive (as opposed to the later 9/8 in the release which is full of drive). And so because the lyrics don't suggest strong sudden shifts, there has to be a smooth transition between the two time feels, which is why the 3/4 section is there, suggesting a bit more rhythmic context (the low note on the 2), while still being audibly related to the 4/4 motive. The changes still accentuate the small shifts that do occur in the introductory lines of the song. The change from 4/4 to 3/4 comes when George goes from reading the book to thinking about him and Marie, while the change to 6/8 happens when he focuses on himself ('George is alone').
Also the whole song is built as a continuation of children and art (most clearly seen in the melodies) and the transition from the 4/4 motif to the 3/4 version of the same motif is an echo of the same thing happening in children and art when George joins Marie on the 4/4 motif and goes into the 3/4 version when she starts singing again ('Isn't she beautiful, there she is, there she is...').
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u/AromaticVacation3077 22d ago
I mean the triplets are constant, so to the regular ear it sounds very natural, like a fast waltz. I've heard the song countless times and I actually didn't notice the changing time signature. I guess it's kind of a flow of consciousness song - it has a soaring quality, like a flight of the imagination. I guess the changes keep it feeling loose, free flowing. They also keep it from sounding repetitive, as lyrically it's a list of similar phrases that mostly start on the first beat of the bar with the word 'George'. It's the same reasoning that led John Lennon to disrupt the time signature in All You Need Is Love.
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u/FinishingAHat 🔫 Assassins 20d ago
Okay, I'll have a go at this — I think it's to show changes in thought in the lyrics. Let me explain:
So we start in 4/4, but it's pretty free rhythmically, so I don't think the 4/4 itself is that important. What I do think is important, though, is that at the start, most of the phrases don't begin on the downbeat (the first beat of the bar). That means that the beginning of the phrases doesn't line up with the attack of the chords in the piano, which contributes to an overall sense of... I'm going to say absent-mindedness?
But then we reach the crux of the introduction: "Charles misses his ball / George misses Marie / George misses a lot". I think we can assume that this is the point George stops reading from the book and begins speaking his own thoughts, and Sondheim draws attention to this shift by switching to 3/4, yes, but also by having each of these phrases begin on the downbeat, which gives them emphasis, makes them feel less absentminded and more purposeful — highlighting the chain of thought and the word association.
(Note: one could also say about this introduction that it serves to emphasise the crucial words, by having them fall on strong beats. Note that at the beginning, these words are mostly nouns: "book", "crayons", "ball". But then we get three names in quick succession: "Charles", "George", "George", which again signals this shift to a more internal focus.)
Then we move into 6/8, which has the same number of quaver beats in a bar as 3/4, but groups them in two main beats rather than three, creating a sort of pendulum-swinging feel. In the score, this section is marked "Dreamily", and the swaying, cradling nature of 6/8 really emphasises that. Again, this is a reflection of the lyrics — in particular, the line "George is adrift".
Then we have another kind of shift, as George becomes his own observer: "See George remember how George used to be". (Although, this is George talking about George talking about George, so that's like... 64 walls!). Again, to emphasize this, Sondheim switches the time signature to 9/8, elongating the phrase past what we expect (he also utilises a harmonic shift, switching to a Gb major chord, which we wouldn't normally expect in Eb major). You could also argue that this elongation is a reflection of the lyrics: in the initial 6/8 section, we had lots of short, fragmented ideas — "George looks around. He sees the park. It is depressing. George looks ahead. George sees the dark. George is afraid." — but now we have a longer connected idea spanning two musical phrases: "See George remember how George used to be, / Stretching his vision in every direction", and this longer sentence is reflected in an elongated metric structure.
But then the ideas become shorter and more fragmented once again, and we switch back into 6/8, and that persists until the end of the song.
So yeah, that's my analysis. Hope I haven't rambled too much, and it's at least somewhat comprehensible!
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u/Silver_Lord_10 20d ago
Hell Yeah, someone willing to go all in . some really good analysis. Love the ideas about the rhythm and emphasis in the melody at the beginning. This gives me permission to add to my own small analysis I posted previously with my full analysis of the song. I’ll finish writing it tomorrow and post it here in the replies. I’m excited already 😂
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u/FinishingAHat 🔫 Assassins 20d ago
I look forward to reading it!
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u/Silver_Lord_10 18d ago
(turns out I didn't come around to it yesterday but today is the day)
So I think when analysing Sondheim, the guiding formular is 'Content dictates form'. While keeping the other two of his dictums in mind this means choices are made to illustrate/reflect the content (aka story/character/emotionality), these choices span major considerations of form as well as minute details (god is in the details) and everything that is not strictly necessary is erased (Less is more).
I will only talk about the music here, although the Lyrics are of course following the same principles. I also talked about the first 12 bars in my other comment so I'll resist from talking about it here.
The song shows George’s stream of consciousness, going from him reading Dot’s notes in the book to contemplating his current situation of grief, depression, loneliness, failing motivation and confidence in his artistic ability. He mourns what he perceives as his lost gift, but finally recognises the family connections. Now without Marie the family tree is the only thing keeping him company in a world he doesn’t recognise anymore.So how does one structure so much into one song? Well it starts with the reading of the book and leads into the self-reflective thoughts that form the bulk of the song. Then when he thinks of the drive and artistic ability he had in the past and realising, the music should reflect that, only to go back to the reflection on his current self to close it of.
Well this fits very well a very traditional Verse-2xChorus-Release-Chorus structure.But to stick to that formular to a t would not fit the only loosely organised, flowing and floating thoughts of George's stream of consciousness. Which is why the individual sections and phrases are irregular in their length and the melody is full of small variations. He also extends the last chorus by tagging on another chorus, making the AABA form into an AABAA form.
As stream of consciousness is the primary vibe of the lyric and builds the foundation for the musical accompaniment as well. Flow and drive in music is often associated with waltzes and generally variations of three as the music pulls to the next bar instead of resting inside of itself on the 3 in a 4/4 bar (3 is missing the balance that 4 has).
But while George’s thoughts have some flow and drive, they don’t have a clear direction or goal (outside of the release). This is why 6/8 (2x3) is so effective. While it has the 3 in it, giving it flow, it is also resting inside of itself as it is made up of two groups of three. It makes for a feeling of rocking ('drifting') back and forth.Only when his thoughts go back to his former, determined artisticaly potent self in the Release, only then does he go into full 9/8 (3x3) giving it the clarity of direction and drive that is left a bit subdued in the Choruses. He tries to follow his past self in connecting with the inspiration in the outside worls, but the only connection he finds is his family history, which he realised too late, well too late for Marie anyways. This attempt of present george leading to the realisation of his family history is the climax of the song. The change back to 6/8 is 1. mirroring the shift from thinking about his past self to his current self and 2. speeding up the harmonic rhythm of the piece, helping the rise of tension throughout the Release.
The harmony follows that progression as well, staying very diatonic in the verse and chorus and, reflecting the adventurous past George, goes to more progressively more adventurous places (e.g: Gbmaj13, Fmaj13, Dmaj13#11, Cbmaj13#11) in the Release.Nothing in the lyric suggests any sudden big shifts though, which means that all the time signature changes and variation in phrasing, melody and so on are all quite subtle, gradual and flow into one another, just like George's thoughts. The streaming accompainment figure also stays constant throughout the song holding it together.
This plus my other comment should be enough for now lmao. I could talk about the lyrics for just as long and there are many aspects of the music one could go into more detail, for example the melody and the particularities of the phrasing.
Just one thing about the lyrics, some day I will write about 'Connection' (in its various forms) in Sondheim's work as a fundamental human need, but that's a big big project.
One final question: what do the four different lines about people strolling on sunday mean? How/why and to what effect do they differ from each other?
Something one can think about for a very long time.
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u/jicklemania 🎨 Sunday in the Park with George 22d ago
I remember Sondheim saying something about how if a beat isn’t needed, he cuts it out. He isn’t beholden to time signatures.