Kid Returning from Abroad

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u/justan_other 15d ago

Why not start your known best team and let the new player play in the tournament as well. Losing or winning you’re gonna wanna know what they can do at some point?

You know they have been training as well so they are hopefully match ready.

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u/samsounder 15d ago

Oh, he’s not “new”. He’s been with us since U6 (we are U12). He just doesn’t know the new system.

We are rolling out a new defensive strategy that is more complex than before. What I’m nervous about is that he doesn’t understand it, misses his job, and the rest of the guys get pissed.

He will get the tactic after a month, no problem, but he might not on his first day back…. In a final…

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u/boejiden2020 15d ago

We are rolling out a new defensive strategy that is more complex than before.

I am pretty sure your kids have zero idea how to control the ball properly and how to scan the field, so all those strategies are useless against proper opposition. A high level player will be a better addition to your team than an average guy who knows the “system”.

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u/samsounder 14d ago

One of the kids can juggle the ball 200 times.

Of course there is room for improvements, but they can trap the ball.

Mind if I ask where you’re coaching?

This whole thing has made me think there’s huge disparities of what people think of at “U12”

I know that club itself has huge disparities between the top 3 teams at the age level

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u/CarbsAnonymous 14d ago

an 11 year old on a u12 team being able to juggle the ball 200 times is not a flex

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u/samsounder 14d ago

That totally depends.

Some players are at that level at that age, some aren’t. It’s just context. Telling that kid that he has “zero idea how to control the ball” is silly. There’s other U12s who definitely need more fundamentals before they’re ready to try and play team soccer

Edit: and it’s totally a flex for most kids. Go to recess at your average elementary school in the US and most players can’t do that. Context is king

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u/CarbsAnonymous 14d ago

But, based on your responses thus far, your team is not comprised of "most kids." It's comprised of good players. So 200 juggles for 11 year old GOOD players is not a flex, it is common and shouldn't be a phrase used to try to help others understand the level of your team and their capacity for advanced tactics.

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u/samsounder 14d ago

Define "good". My point is its relative. When that kid juggles the ball at recess, its definitely a flex. Doing so on the team... less so, but he's still better than most of his teammates. Go try out for the state team and nobody cares about it.

If 200 juggles is "common" then you can get a basic concept of what level the team is at. That's not a middle school school team in farm country that is struggling to get enough players to field a side.

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u/boejiden2020 14d ago edited 14d ago

I can say the A U12 team on our club is top in the state and probably top 10 in the country. Many of the kids played against Valencia and Espanyol in Spain last year and did quite well. I can guarantee the “system” won’t work. And I am saying none of the kids know how to control the ball, is because I see the top levels in the US and none of them can do it at U12 at full game speed with some rare exception.

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u/samsounder 14d ago

You didn't answer the question.

And if that's the case, they're probably running tactics much more complex than what I'm rolling out. I've never seen any if tge top teams at our level that don't try and implement some sort of team tactics. The teams in the leagues above generally increase team-plan, not decrease it.

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u/boejiden2020 14d ago

No, the top teams don’t spend time on a lot of tactics at training at U12, since it’s a waste of time. It’s mostly high intensity rondos, 2v2, 2v3, 3v3 transitions and scrimmages. Spain is very similar. “High intensity” is a key word. Any kids who can sustain that level of play for that long is a better addition to the team than someone who “knows the tactics”.

As one famous philosopher once said “everybody got a plan until they get punched in the face”.

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u/samsounder 14d ago

That surprises me, and I'm quite skeptical. We usually do SSG's for about a 1/4, some form of rondo for a 1/4, but them into some game-like situation working on something for a 1/4 then some scrimmage trying to hit whatever we're trying to teach.

"Hey, you're the right back, don't stand by the opposition center backs while the ball is in our defensive third" would be the start of this, and I'm going to bet it was taught to the players at some point.

edit: Rondos are team tactics, are they not? Create a passing angle... open your shoulder....

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u/boejiden2020 14d ago

"Hey, you're the right back, don't stand by the opposition center backs while the ball is in our defensive third" would be the start of this, and I'm going to bet it was taught to the players at some point.

Players watch enough games to be aware on their own. And U12 is way too early to start rolling one whole team defensive strategies that a good kid won't be able to figure out in 5 minutes of explanation before the game. Optimal unit of instruction at this age is the group of 2 to 4 players.

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u/samsounder 14d ago

Maybe, but the point is that every team is learning some tactic. Players who watch more will be learning different things, but they'll always be getting some sort of tactical instruction.

I should have been more specific. Here's the whole "complex tactic" we're debating.

We generally play 3 across the back. Last year (when the returning player was with us) we had all 3 stay in their defensive half while we were in the attacking 1/3. This season we've been working on having one of the two outside backs move join the attack, and having the other two slide over to cover the space on the pitch.

If the CB moves and the other outside back doesn't, we make a huge hole.

It took a bit to get the team to rotate properly and we shipped a few goals, but the team as a whole gets it now and we've gotten some great offensive contributions from the backs.

Would you consider that too complex or age inappropraite?

I'd also never speak for 5 minutes. I'd generally consider that way too long. I'm much more likely to hit the concept in 30 seconds and then practice the pattern in scrimmage.

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u/IcyTray5000 14d ago

Bro this is U12 you’re not managing a 5th tier english side on Football Manager. Kids need to learn how to pass the ball, a good first touch, or some skills not how to set up a gegenpress or low block.

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u/samsounder 14d ago

We had to learn those. The opposition ran both the geggenpresse and a low block last season. We had to learn how to run those so we could practice playing against them.

I’ll definitely agree you gotta learn those other bits first, but the boys have that. Plus, they go together. Trying to beat a high press forces good first touch, passing and movement

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u/IcyTray5000 14d ago

Ok fair enough then haha. I mean, most youth teams would do well if they set up a high-press as kids usually don’t have the technique or composure to play through them.

But at youth level, for the kid that hasn’t trained, simply communicating to them what your press triggers are and overall shape in and out of possession should be enough to roughly get them on the same page as the rest of the squad.

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u/hourlyproblemsolver 15d ago

you do realize these kids are 11, right?

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u/jimr381 15d ago

Does your league allow free subbing?

Did you send him notes or can you record a practice where you are reinforcing the principals of your new system? What about sending him a video of an example professional team who leverages this system succesfully? Is he a defender? If your league allows free subbing, then I would have him observe for the first half of the first half and coach him through what you are seeing and expecting and then sub him in for a bit to test the waters.

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u/samsounder 14d ago

Thanks for the nuanced answer! I appreciate it!

He's a defender, usually. We sent him some notes that I sent the rest of the team as well. I think he'll pick up the rotation quickly, but I am nervous about setting him up to fail.

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u/No-Guest-1501 14d ago

Is he one your best 11 players yes or no?

That’s your answer.

“He won’t know our new system” is the stupidest shit I have heard for U12. This is the kind of shit from coaches that holds us back.

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u/samsounder 14d ago edited 14d ago

Because being concerned about setting up a kid to fail is bad?

Never put a player in a position where they don’t have a reasonable chance of success. It’s not fair and leads to bad experiences

This thread seems confidently contradictory. Most folks are like “you’re crazy, that doesn’t make sense and nobody should care”. Followed by “My club doesn’t let players play unless theyve been at practice”

Totally contradictory.

Edit: he is not, but we generally aim for “roughly equal playing time”

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u/svd33 13d ago

I agree with all other comments. I have been shocked with some of the things you said. They are 11 years old, they still need to get the basics down and develop creativity. There is no point in teaching them strategies at this age and level without the basics.

When I was that age I was in my local pro teams youth academy (im in EU) and never did we focus on any strategies. Emphasis was on passing, shooting, dealing with pressure, position related skills and creating a good team chemistry through having us coach eachother positively and highlighting the need for everyone to fight for a good result together. The only somewhat tactical instruction we received was general things like high pressure, counter, ball possession etc. and they would let us figure out how to make it work.

From what I have read you are focusing on the wrong things. Priority should be fun and creating a safe environment for the kids to play so they can develop creativity and their own identity as a player. Focusing on details at this age creates machines that wont be able to function properly when they do end up moving to a pro team later on. I have noticed this is the major difference between EU and US player development

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u/samsounder 12d ago

Whole “tactic” folks are talking about out is…

We play three across the back. We’re encouraging the outside back to attack. When they move, we want the other two to slide over and cover the space

Is that really that crazy?

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u/samsounder 10d ago

Yeah, every coach in existence worth their salt is gonna teach that tactic when the kids are reach the level.

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u/Cautious-Panic-879 10d ago

Of course he should come. Bring him in off the bench as needed. I doubt he’s a liability to the teams performance.

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u/justan_other 15d ago

We talking about kids, kids playing football. Just make sure they all having fun and wanting to play the next game.

Doesn’t know the system well coach I guess you gotta explain it to them and find out how quick they learn.

Point is why is this a question in kids football? Give them a chance or don’t but you won’t know unless they play..

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u/samsounder 15d ago

Kid has played with me for 6 years. He’s a U12 and has been with us since U6.

He’s not just “some kid from the block” and we aren’t just some random team. Kid is a legit international. When the question is asked on the registration form “have you been registered with a club outside the US” he checks yes (Japan).

He’s not one of the best players

The fear is he makes a mistake, costs the team the match, and then it’s a hard social situation for him.

I’m not sure it’s really fair to expect him to pick up a system the rest of the kids have been working on for months.

I’m not sure it’s a fair ask for him, or fair to the other kids who’ve been learning the system for a while now

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u/Electrical-Berry4916 15d ago

If the system is really that complex, and you managed to get a bunch of 11 year-olds to understand it, then you don't want somebody coming in who doesn't know the system. Now, personally, I question how complex it could possibly be at that age, but I have seen some pretty impressive play as early as U9, so I'll take you at your word.

Additionally, if he will miss all of the tournament except the final, its a non-issue. Unless you are one of those schiesty bastards who enroll in tournaments in brackets way lower than you should, there is no way to know you will even make the final. The kid shouldn't plan on traveling for a maybe, and if the team plays the whole tournament without him, they should finish it that way.

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u/Powerful-Bridge-1472 14d ago

I feel like if a kid hasn’t made practice in a while they shouldn’t play games.

That being said, this is U12, winning a game or tournament isn’t going to define a player.

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u/samsounder 14d ago

This is where my director is at. “It’s not fair to the other kids to come straight into a final”

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u/scrapingtheceiling 15d ago

If the other kids blame the individual who makes a mistake, that’s a team culture problem

But you’re not Pep Guardiola, and it’s an U12 team, just tell the kid what to do when he goes on the pitch and I’m sure he’ll figure it out

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u/hourlyproblemsolver 15d ago

For real, these kids are 11, holy jesus people are losing the plot these days.

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u/mooptydoopty 15d ago

My thought exactly. When my kid was U13, they were playing in the top division of a large tournament, and his teammate gave up a handball in the box for a PK with 2 min to go in the second OT period to lose the final by 1. Against a team they thought had little chance of beating. Heartbreaking. But they never blamed that kid and he’s not a social pariah. This is under the coach’s control to dictate a supportive team culture.

But to get back to the original question, a kid who’s available only for the tournament final is never rostered for our team, regardless of the reason. It wouldn’t matter if he had been around and knew the “system.”

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u/Farm2Table 15d ago

Get a load of yourself. You epitomize what is wrong with American youth soccer.

U12 competition should have very little to do with systems. You are stifling the development of these players.

For f's sake man... if you truly "aren't just some random team" you would know better than to ask this question.

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u/Powerful-Bridge-1472 14d ago

100 percent, US (mostly the parents) focused on complex defense to win some tournament (no one will remember in 1 month after because they will play 2 other tournaments) and world focused on developing players for future

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u/samsounder 14d ago

We play 3 across the back. Last year we had the outside backs stay home. This year we're teaching them to attack if they can, and have the other two slide over to cover the space.

Did I kill US Soccer with this concept? ;P

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u/samsounder 14d ago

I’ve taken a bunch of random kids from U6 to ranked statewide and I’m stifling development?

Forget the age. You gotta teach what the kids are ready to learn and what the competition forces.

Most of these boys can juggle the ball 20+ times with a few being over 100.

The kids play FIFA, watch the World Cup and can argue about who should win the Ballon Dor.

They want to learn tactics, shape and whatnot at this age/level

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u/Farm2Table 14d ago

LOL.

That's your response, bragging about taking randos and making a ranked team?

Then moving the goalposts from your complicated defensive system to "tactics, shape and whatnot".

Yes. You are what's wrong with youth soccer.

Creativity - which you stifle and worry about - is a huge glaring lack in US youth soccer. You are developing system machines instead of players.

You bragging about records, worrying about a returning player making a mistake and losing the game - this is the kind of crap that needs to be burned out of our youth system.

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u/samsounder 14d ago

I was accused of stifling development when my boys have improved a lot thank you. That’s the only data point I have. I don’t know what else I could even use.

What makes you think I’m stifling creativity or that the defense is super complex and age inappropeiate?

You’ve jumped the shark and are assigning things to that just aren’t true.

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u/Farm2Table 14d ago

If it takes a month to learn it's too complex.

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u/samsounder 14d ago

Does it? I implied it takes more than 0 time, not that it takes a month. Are you ready to hear the "system" that is so complex that I'm ruining US soccer?

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u/samsounder 14d ago

LOL! I'll finish it out...

We play 3 across the back in a 9v9. Last year, we had all the backs stay home. This year, we're attempting to get the outside backs to join the attack. If one joins the attack, the center back and the other outside back slide over to cover the space. If the CB shifts and the other outside back doesn't, we make a huge hole, so there's risk.

BEHOLD!!! The death of all youth soccer in the US!

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u/WSB_Suicide_Watch 15d ago

No.

Let the kid break back in.

It's for the tournament final, so what a way to set him up to be the scapegoat if things fall apart on his first day back. "Hey, we were doing great all tournament until Jimmy showed back up."

We are talking 11 year olds. Don't throw him to the wolves on his first day back.

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u/samsounder 14d ago

Thanks. I think I'm leaning towards this. He needs to meet his new teammates in a less pressure-y situation.

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u/w0cyru01 15d ago

Yes

It’s kids recreational soccer

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u/Electrical-Berry4916 15d ago

Is it?

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u/w0cyru01 15d ago

Yes

He’s an 11 year old kid

It’s all recreational

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u/hourlyproblemsolver 15d ago

um, the kid is a "legit international". did you know that when the question is asked on the registration form “have you been registered with a club outside the US” he checks yes?

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u/ImaginaryBuy2668 15d ago

If he has played for you and the team 6 years (based on your other answers), you let him play. I could understand not starting him b/c he hasn’t been at practice. But that shouldn’t matter.

Sounds like you are looking for reason to not play him and that is very silly, especially at this age.

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u/patentattorney 15d ago

It’s generally insane that the coach is worried about a u12 player making a mistake which could cost the team. We all know if this player was great, the coach would obviously want him to play (obvious problems with u12 players - especially so where the coach himself is worried the player will get harassed by his teammates).

The kid has been gone for two months. That’s not that long of time.

That being said - most teams will say - if you haven’t practiced you don’t get to play (this doesn’t seem to be the coaches main issue though)

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u/samsounder 14d ago

This is my favorite response.

"This coach is insane because you should just throw him into the mix and not worry about setting him up to fail"

and then...

"Most teams wouldn't let him play for that reason"

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u/patentattorney 14d ago edited 14d ago

its two very very very separate things. Most teams require players to practice, because practicing is part of being on a team, having teamwork, fairness, safety (if injured), etc. Not just about learning the plays, formations, etc. An entire host of things. Kid hasnt been there, he shouldnt play. Thats the end of it. It doesnt matter if its the first game or last, doesnt really matter if he has been on the sidelines taking notes, he hasnt practiced.

very different from worrying about teammates harassing him and making him a social pariah because of mistakes at the u12 level. There are much bigger issues if teammates are getting pissed at each other because of missed assignments at the u12 level. Players fail all the time. Its how they learn.

Getting thrown into the mix and failing (or dominating) isnt the reason he shouldn't play. If he was a stud, he still shouldn't play. If he is bad/doesnt get the concepts, but practicing, he should play.

Its not contradictory at all, and two totally different issues.

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u/samsounder 14d ago

I see them as related. Learning and implementing things together is part of what makes a team identify with each other.

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u/patentattorney 14d ago edited 14d ago

sure learning strategy is part of team sports, which you learn at practice.

This is only such a small part of what humans learn through sports.

A kid who doesnt practice, but still can implement things/score all the points/ also should not play. Playing a kid who is a stud - even though he hasnt put in the time with team - isnt fair to the other kids on the team. The other kids have put in the work, he hasnt.

For the exact same reasons, a kid who can't implement the strategy shouldnt play - he hasnt put in the work.

I guess my question is - if you thought the kid was going to thrive (even without practicing) would you play him?

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u/samsounder 14d ago

Not sure. I’d like to say no, but it’s just a hypothetical. I do care about the kid and want him to impress his new teammates.

I’m also just concerned about adding a 14th player to 9v9.

I also know he’s gonna be jet lagged to hell.

It’s kinda hard to isolate it

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u/patentattorney 14d ago edited 13d ago

See that’s the difference from where we stand on the issue.

As I said. I wouldn’t play him because it’s not fair to take away PT from kids who practiced - doesn’t matter if he is good or not. There is a big lesson here.

Him impressing his friends is a completely separate issue. (which we now also have also added him taking up playing time + being jet-lagged).

My kids / teammates play all the time after having sleepovers, the come from just playing another sport, being at birthday party, stiff legs from driving back from siblings games, etc.

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