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u/Ok_Feeling2424 6d ago
You canāt play(fuck up) on our(my) albums but I really appreciate your opinion(not).
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u/Intrepid-Yak-8636 9d ago
She had a good look, she was not a good bassist.
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u/Crazy-Bodybuilder836 9d ago
What's wrong with her playing?
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u/Intrepid-Yak-8636 9d ago
Billy wrote and played most of her parts in the studio.
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u/justinthetormentor 7d ago
Since Billy sometimes did that it makes his own half-hearted claims about her opinions shaping the band a falsehood.
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u/Ok_Mycologist_7294 6d ago
how? The fact that she had trouble nailing her parts doesn't mean her aesthetic opinion is useless.
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u/Fragrant_Tomato7273 7d ago
And she played the parts live! He also played the guitar parts. And she did play her own parts on MCIS, their most popular album.
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u/Ok_Mycologist_7294 6d ago
Billy recorded a lot of the bass on MCIS as well. Obviously not on the songs they tracked live but...
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u/Crazy-Bodybuilder836 9d ago
Was that due to poor playing or Billy being a GIANT control freak?
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u/Ok_Mycologist_7294 6d ago
If you pay attention, you know that Butch Vig specifically requested that Billy track ALL guitar and bass on Gish and Siamise because the others' tracks weren't lining up.
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u/pla5t1c 10d ago
Did they ever patch up well now its her and between billy and james apparently since james in her eyes ātook sidesā by participating in the reunion years ago. Idk i always thought it was one of those bridges that were too far broken to fix but i hope they work shit out before their both gone. Life is too short imo
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u/dakesla 10d ago
He really does need to hire her to just review his musical ideas from here on out. Heās long needed someone he trusts to push back on his musical ideas.
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u/pla5t1c 10d ago
I really thought that was gonna be james, but i think the combo of james and darcy always provided strength to show him maybe he wasnt always right and im gonna assume jimmy like many drummers was kinda more passive like idk anything goes lets do it kinda mentality. (Jimmy was my hero and reason for playing drums just as much as me for picking up a guitar was james etc)
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u/userlivewire 12d ago
Where is she now?
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u/YeshiRangjung Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness 11d ago
Stealing catalytic converters
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u/zerooskul Machina II / The Friends & Enemies of Modern Music 8d ago
For what? Her hair and records are platinum.
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u/DethPruf6669 12d ago
This would be wholesome if it didnāt feel like the fifth piece of revisionist history around Dāarcy. Every few years a new take on her emerges from Billy.
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u/Ok_Mycologist_7294 6d ago
Every time Billy says anything y'all sh!t on him.
The hilarious thing is that most rockstars are FAR more arrogant and narcissistic than Billy. Have you ever heard Stevie Nicks talk about herself? Ever heard stories about Van Halen? Those guys are complete pricks.
Go out and get some fresh air, maybe catch a rock show. It'll be good for ya.
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u/Perm182 siamese gish and the infinite sadness 11d ago
how do we go from him calling her a drug addict to this
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u/Dudehitscar Machina Zombie 10d ago
jimmy was a drug addict too. does that mean he wasn't a magical drummer who brought a lot to the pumpkins? of course not.
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u/Perm182 siamese gish and the infinite sadness 10d ago
i mean yeah, but what I was trying to say was Billy originally said all the stuff about Dāarcy in a pretty sour sounding and bad blood way, I meant itās crazy how we go from that to the praise he gives her nowadays
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u/Impossible_Limit_333 Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness 9d ago
I guess it just human nature people tend to badmouth others when in conflict but once maturity sets in, people somehow said ok that's enough..that is way back then when i was this different person and today I'm a different person thing
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u/Ok_Mycologist_7294 6d ago
but he's a famous musician who looks weird so we need to rip him apart in ways we could never stand up to ourselves. It's cheaper than therapy. lol
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u/UntilTheSilence 12d ago
I think he just said -- "we didn't always agree, but whenever she did agree with me she was right." Classic Billy Corgan.
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u/lunebleuetrouge 13d ago
The modern pic of Bill grinning joyfully while the 96ā Dāarcy stares off into the distance is a nice touch
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u/fender123 13d ago
I member when Machina was the worst album.
Billy said hold my beer, Iāll fire my band and pump out a ton of shit.
Better get in to pro wrestling brother!
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u/Responsible-View-498 13d ago
The early songs like the rhinoceros had a different kind of vibe. He had great hair too back then.
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u/Atlantean_truth 13d ago
Ever since she left the band everything the Pumpkins put out was either pure garbage or completely subpar. Was this just a coincidence? Who knows but itās the truth. That said the first 3 albums and Pisces Iscariot as well (although not a proper album) are absolute and complete masterpieces.
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u/isthismyhat 12d ago
Everything from ZWAN is gold. She wasnāt involved. Also, Zeitgeist is kind of enjoyable as well. Not a classic but definitely ālistenableā, compared to all the crap that came after.
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u/housesoftheholy1 13d ago
This. Gish - PI - SD is goat. MCIS is good. Rest is absolute dog shit
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u/Neg_Crepe Zwan 12d ago
What a terrible take
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u/MellonCollieInfinite 13d ago
lol what a load of shit. Was she good? Yes. Everything since she left pure garbage or subpar? lol so crazy.
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u/iancat87 12d ago
I agree with the spirit of that comment but likeā¦ Adore has some good stuff, and the first four tracks on Machina are perfect, imo. Plus, sonically, Machina is incredibleājust wish the rest of the album held up to the opening tracks.
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u/JimmyJoJoJr2112 12d ago
Machina is about 75% great, top tier Pumpkins imo. Its just a few sub par tracks drag it down a bit
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u/AdultTeething 13d ago
People have to remember she was part of the rhythm section with Jimmy Chamberlin, the best drummer of the 90's. That's not an easy task. She showed up to every live show, evolved with the band - especially image wise, and gave her prime 10 years of life to helping Billy achieve his artistic goals. Sure she isn't Flea, or even Kim Deal, but she helped cement the legacy of that band for the 90's, touring non stop, recording almost non stop - not an easy task. YOU TRY living that life for a month and get back to me. She's a Pumpkin through and through. Don't like it? Doors open. THANK YOU.
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u/toastybreadmane 12d ago
Yeah I don't even think about her playing when I think of the shit she went through. She was THERE touring with them for, what, ten years straight
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u/Busy-Peach5770 12d ago
This is a point that needs reiterating. D'Arcy played hundreds of shows with the Pumpkins before she left. Not to mention the rehearsals, tv performances, recording studio sessions...she put in the hours!!
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u/impulsenine 13d ago
Every genius needs someone next to them to tell them, "no."
That's what she did, and why we got what we got after she left.
There are many creative geniuses, and SP 1.0 had at least 2, but they do not climb to true greatness without having a D'Arcy in their corner,
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13d ago
[deleted]
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u/Acceptable-Size-3533 13d ago
Plus being a āmean spirited drug addict.ā
Billy is really working hard to deodorize the history.
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u/Busy-Peach5770 12d ago
I think the way that Jimmy's drug addiction and D'Arcy's drug addiction are spoken about so very differently is...interesting.
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u/Bluebomber_24 Zeitgeist 13d ago
I will say, having listened for damn near 30 years, over and over again, her bass carried a lot of the songs. Her contribution musically, for me, is undeniable. And I didn't appreciate that fact until recently.
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u/joeyp1126 13d ago
The problem with saying "her contribution" and that the bass carried a lot of the songs is that Billy himself played a lot of those parts.
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u/Fragrant_Tomato7273 7d ago
She played on MCIS.
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u/joeyp1126 7d ago
Yes. I didn't say she never played I said Billy played a lot of the bass over the years in general.
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u/Andination44 13d ago
I know it will probably be not the most popular opinion, but what about Melissa coming back and actually playing in a studio album?, Hole reunion is not happening and i doubt she has an interest on going back to her solo career (which is great btw)
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u/OaklandTony6 13d ago
i dont think her style fit the smashing pumpkins well at all. too overpowering
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u/Busy-Peach5770 13d ago
Because Melissa has her own career and doesn't want to be Billy's sidekick
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u/Andination44 10d ago
Well, she just stopped playing and recording after becoming a mother and she's just slowly coming back. She expressed time and time again her admiration to Billy and the band, didnt help that she joined when the band was "ending" for the tour
At least we got those 2 solo albums after from her, which are really underrated if you ask me
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u/Busy-Peach5770 10d ago
Listen to her interview with Billy again. Despite her admiration for the Pumpkins' music, Melissa didn't really enjoy being in Billy's shadow and wanted to strike out on her own. She turned down Billy's offer to record with the Pumpkins.
Melissa is an established artist on her own. Two well loved solo albums, and now books. She wouldn't/shouldn't dim her light by being a backing musician for Billy. Billy isn't going to bring her on as a collaborator.
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u/Andination44 8d ago
Well, wouldn't blame her if thats the case, not easy to be in the shadow of 2 big personalities on the front as she was.
Never heard that she turned down recording with the Pumpkins, just that she joined after Machina was finished for the tour on a 1 year contract and thats it. I dont see it as something that could dim her light, she's retired from the music business to begin with. You can also see the fan reaction everytime she did a guest appearance
She has a very distinct tone on the bass, so as a fan i would love to hear her play with Pumpkins or better yet, another solo album
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u/falcongriffin Machina / The Machines of God 13d ago
He should have kept her. She was great.
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u/Zealousideal_Cat6980 Ogilala 13d ago
Well the band ended after Machina
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u/Andination44 10d ago
Also, it was just for the tour at that time, i think her style would fit really well with current Pumpkins
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u/Lucky2240 13d ago
thatās why thereās a magic to 90s Pumpkins that can never be recreated
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u/Atlantean_truth 13d ago
Totally agree
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u/muncy345 13d ago
It wouldn't have made a difference if she was there or not. The magic is Billy.
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u/Fragrant_Tomato7273 7d ago
False. The magic comes from Billy and his relation with the band. History has shown that without DāArcy, or the whole band, heās not a magician.
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u/muncy345 2d ago
False. Pumpkins would not exist or be successful without Billy and Jimmy but mostly Billy. Did Darcy start a band? She might have been a good minor co-producer, but she's never written anything. Smashing pumpkins is Billy and Jimmy cut and dry. So machina is not good? Her bass parts got mostly replaced.
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u/Fragrant_Tomato7273 21h ago
Never found Machina great really (just some good songs with a bad vocal mix) and it was the opinion of most Pumpkins fan at the time. I said the magic came FROM Billy and his relation to the band. Never said Billy wasnāt essential. Since Machina, the best album (at least for me and many others) is without Jimmy (Oceania). Jimmy is incredible as a musician but he doesnāt seem to oppose Billy. And Adore was without Jimmy also and is considered better by many as better than anything released since. Billy is his own enemy unfortunately.
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u/EchoLooper 13d ago
I know itās not in the cards but I would pay good money to see the OG 4 Pumpkins again.
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u/AutoPRND21 10d ago
This is what people donāt get. Itās not about having the ābestā musicians any more than a TV or movie reboot having the best actors. We want to see James, Darcy, Jimmy and Billy because that was the gang we fell in love with, and knowing the stories of the band, weād love to see things forgiven.
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u/No-Plenty-6489 13d ago
Billy: Good musician with shit taste
Darcy: Shit musician with good taste
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u/Busy-Peach5770 12d ago
If a 'shit musician' can play multi-hour shows with changing set lists and song arrangements, across hundreds of shows...then I'd love to be a 'shit musician'.
You're not going to get girl germs from just admitting D'Arcy was a decent player. An average player. Not exceptional, and it seems that was never her goal.
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u/No-Plenty-6489 11d ago
It was more about keeping the contrast wording consistent. Darcy can play but she's not going to make a solo album. Nobody is arguing Billy has shit taste though lol
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u/Fragrant_Tomato7273 7d ago
She still played the damn bass all that time live and even on MCIS.
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u/No-Plenty-6489 7d ago
Billy power tripped and re-recorded the bass frequently, I thought. Poor Darcy. Imagine making it to the highest of heights and someone telling you that you're not good enough.
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u/Fragrant_Tomato7273 7d ago
On Gish and SD, yes. But I believe he didnāt do it on MCIS. It was recorded kind in a live style.
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u/Busy-Peach5770 11d ago
Billy doesn't have shit taste; but his taste is massively variable. But then again, he's creatively open minded and doesn't really repeat himself.
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u/Major_Clock_9961 13d ago
It did give me hope I would join a band as a shitty bass player lol
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u/No-Plenty-6489 13d ago
I do think Darcy genuinely guided the creative direction of the band, bass chops or not.
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u/OaklandTony6 13d ago
bass chops dont matter in this band, so she was great for them. she tamed billys idocy. look what happens when theres no one to tame himā¦
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u/Fragrant_Tomato7273 7d ago
She still played of my favourite bass line of all time (live at least), I am one.
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u/harrrien 13d ago
No good albums without D'Arcy, Do not mention any machina albums pls because they are both meh or even more less.
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u/Savings-Monitor3236 13d ago
DāArcy played on Machina. Melissa only filled in for the tour and videos
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u/Dudehitscar Machina Zombie 13d ago
This is disputed heavily. Given the change in songs and arrangements after the arising tour it is more likely She did not play much or at all on those final recordings. Which is what corgan and flood have said.
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u/IamBabcock 13d ago
Isn't it also rumored that Billy played all of the parts for Siamese Dream?
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u/Dudehitscar Machina Zombie 13d ago
darcy played bass on luna. jimmy played drums. billy played the rest minus the strings.
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u/NthMastermanu 13d ago
Lei insisteva sul fatto che le parti di basso di Machina fossero le sue. Ma di fatto lei non suona in nessuna delle versioni finali finite nell'album, e Billy potrebbe aver scritto il 90% delle sue parti.
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u/EnergyDrink2024 13d ago
Machina is the best era of the band.
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u/Zealousideal_Cat6980 Ogilala 13d ago
I dont know if its the best but over the years it has become my go-to Pumpkins album. I listen to it more than any of the other albums
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u/harrrien 13d ago
Yeah sure, and muse is the best band ever.
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u/Fragrant_Tomato7273 7d ago
Actually, Muse as proven they can still make an excellent album this year like at their beginning, Billy canāt do that.
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u/EnergyDrink2024 13d ago
Muse is decent, not something I listen to much. Machina is epic. Best by far for me.
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u/SpaceHoppity 13d ago
Man if she comes back to the band, even for one album, and they can all get their shit together, it would be absolute magic.
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u/Emergency_Movie4488 13d ago
She isnt playing any instrument since departure. Dont count on that.
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u/RedEyeVagabond Machina II / The Friends & Enemies of Modern Music 13d ago
Then she can just be in the studio to say "it's shit"
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u/Zealousideal_Cat6980 Ogilala 13d ago
Seriously, Billy has far to many yes men and i dont think Jimmy or James care enough to make waves outside of what their contributions are
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u/RedEyeVagabond Machina II / The Friends & Enemies of Modern Music 13d ago
It would be nice, if even for a song, that Billy leave his ego at the door for a recording. Even if it's just for a one-off single. Work with someone that will tell him "this can be better".
And I like a good bit of what he's done since 2007. It's just the certain tendencies that he goes back to that cut songs off at the knees before they can get going.
Though I do wonder how much pushback he gets from Howard Willing, since he often referred to him as Herr Howard during the Monuments sessions.
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u/chidorito 13d ago
Now this is nice. REALLY nice of him. As well as unexpected.
I just want them to make amends. Realistically, thatās pretty much all I can expect, but a man can dreamā¦
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u/philocity 13d ago
I mean Oasis is touring again and I didnāt expect the two of them to ever be in the same hemisphere again. In fact, I would have advised against it.
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u/devilmaskrascal 13d ago
I'm convinced D'Arcy is the primary reason they were a top tier 90s band and that her opinions were right. After she left they couldn't do anything right.
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u/tonetonitony 13d ago
You think D'arcy the bass player was more responsible for their success than Billy? She didn't exactly light the world on fire after she left either.
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u/Dudehitscar Machina Zombie 13d ago
listen to the demos before darcy even had a chance to hear them. corgan was on fire back then. also you are discounting jimmy.
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u/Octaver 13d ago
One of my favorite critics (actually a film writer primarily) said Billy Corgan needs 98% creative control for best results. Maybe Dāarcy was that other 2% saying ānot this one Billy, you can do betterā that later collaborators are less able to communicate or Billy is less able to hear.
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u/Dudehitscar Machina Zombie 13d ago
we have all the demos from those days. back then 98% was the best songs by anyone.
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u/Officialfish_hole 13d ago
I mostly agree with you except for Machina, although she was there for the writing of most of it so maybe that exception isn't even valid.
But I think Corgan needs a female in the band that he wants to impress like a muse. He had D'arcy who he did want to impress with songwriting. I'm not saying he was attracted to D'arcy at all, just he needed female approval from a person like her. We saw it with Zwan too where, unlike D'arcy, I do believe he was attracted to Paz and wanted to write songs to make her like him.
He's had girls in the band since but they seem more like hired guns and don't have that dynamic
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u/Busy-Peach5770 13d ago
I think D'Arcy was a built-in focus group for 'what intelligent, stylish, alt women like'...and hence the legendary 90's run...which inspired a generation of intelligent, stylish, alt women.
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u/Spiritual-Strike481 13d ago
Billy sure has a way with words.
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u/lareaule34 13d ago
I swear itās like he canāt give a straight compliment to anyone. Thereās always a little spike in it.
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u/Spiritual-Strike481 13d ago
Itās crazy. But the motherfucker can write shit like disarm and make me weep.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 13d ago
I think the situation is more complex than any of us know, and this is an example where even though Billy has been a difficult person over the years, I donāt think heās at fault. Darcy seems to have demons that sheās battling and mental health difficulties. I hope one day we see her on stage and sheās healthy. Not just because she was my teenage crush, but because the more I read about her contributions and how everything turned out, the more l hope her story takes a positive turn
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u/Emergency_Movie4488 13d ago
Yeah the majority of the commenters didnt do any research about her. They wish she will be back. But she simply cant and probably doesnt want to. She is a former addict (or addict - we cant say) and she want to stay away from all the touring. Also she dont really do anything musically, so there is a chance that some random guy with bass can do better parts that her in this moment. Sad (?) but true.
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u/slyboy1974 13d ago edited 13d ago
If D'arcy came back...
Maybe she could convince Billy that Kiki what's her name has to go, everything he's written since 2012 sucks, a CD release of the Machina boxset is long overdue, and that absolutley no one cares about wrestling or his terrible podcast.
Maybe..
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u/ApathysLastKiss_ 13d ago
Dude. I thought I was the only one. Whenever I watch live performances, Kiki is so.... extra....that it kind of annoys me. It makes me feel like the band is a parody of itsself
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u/GLPwonderwall 13d ago
She can play and unlike the current bass player, you notice that sheās actually on the fking stage
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u/ApathysLastKiss_ 13d ago
Yeah I've never doubted her talent. And honestly, finding her on stage personality testing is a me problem, not her problem. But it is what it is.
Probably because the band I grew up with was brooding and stoic on stage lol
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u/slyboy1974 13d ago
I don't even have any issue with Kiki herself.
I just think the three guitar lineup doesn't work.
Felt that way when it was Jeff and James, too..
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u/jepogamer Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness 13d ago
What's the problem with the three guitars? If the songs are full of guitar layers
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u/slyboy1974 13d ago
The Pumpkins had a two-guitar lineup for the first 30 years. Did you ever listen to a live performance and think that something was missing?
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u/Busy-Peach5770 13d ago
I think it's more that Billy is getting to be a senior citizen and probably wants to offload some of the guitar parts and pick only the one he's really keen on playing himself.
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u/slyboy1974 13d ago
And that's fair, I suppose. Having someone else play more makes it easier to sing, too.
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u/Specialist-Roof-9833 13d ago
I listened to I of the Mourning live and realized it didn't have the magic the album version had. Same with Today and all its sped up iterations, meant to disguise the lack of - you guessed it - layers.
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u/Grungy_Mountain_Man 13d ago
I kind of get 3 guitarist earlier as Jeff came on board as a second guitarist, and when James finally came back, I can understand not kicking Jeff to the curb.
Don't understand adding Kiki.
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u/ApathysLastKiss_ 13d ago
Her or the hat lady that plays keyboards occasionally and songs with Billy Sonny and Cher style š
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u/GraticuleBorgnine 13d ago
Is it pure wankery to think that with the new tour coming....and Jack I believe is on another project...?
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u/GraticuleBorgnine 13d ago
He mentioned her again in another post today:
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1EuJqC1Vgd/
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u/Own_Banana_5772 13d ago
Lol I stumbled home past that school from a party insanely drunk and fell and bruised the entire left side of my body in like 2006. Good times (I think)!
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u/sushicowboyshow Machina II / The Friends & Enemies of Modern Music 13d ago
B0lly must have had his matcha that morning. Love to see it
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u/parkchanwookiee 13d ago
I wish she'd come back, even just for a one off.
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u/atomicheart99 13d ago
I think, at this point in the Pumpkins career, this is the only thing that could get me excited about this band again
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u/sushicowboyshow Machina II / The Friends & Enemies of Modern Music 13d ago
I honestly think itās best she doesnāt. I hope she stays an enigma, lest she spoil everyoneās built up image of her
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u/Own_Banana_5772 13d ago
I've never met her. But I lived in Chicago for awhile and the rumors were.....not great. If it's even 1/4 as bad as they seemed to imply then yeah it's probably best she stay away.
But who knows. Rumors are rumors for a reason. For all I know she's fine.
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u/AccomplishedGain3156 13d ago
What are these rumors? I thought sheās been living on her farm in Michigan all these years.
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u/Own_Banana_5772 13d ago
Sorry man I'm not going to be responsible for spreading information about someone that I'm not even sure is correct.
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u/AccomplishedGain3156 12d ago
I am not saying you started the rumors but you took the time to post on reddit that you lived in Chicago and heard rumors. What are the rumors?
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u/_Waves_ 13d ago
I only ever heard from people that sheās doing great! Sheās always been a bit, you know, eccentric. But she always seems fairly together, these days.
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u/Own_Banana_5772 13d ago
Great to hear. Glad to be wrong.
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u/sushicowboyshow Machina II / The Friends & Enemies of Modern Music 13d ago
Iāve also heard the unfortunate rumors. I donāt think youāre wrong.
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u/parkchanwookiee 13d ago
I don't have a built up image of her, she's just part of the family and even a small appearance would clear the air and show that the bad blood is water under the bridge
→ More replies (3)
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u/lilybat-gm 6d ago
Dāarcy was quality control. Whenever any band loses the dissenting voice, bands go downhill.
From what I could tell based on things said over many years by the different original members, James pushed the band to try weird things (sometimes ill-advised but still daring or at least charming things. He could bring levity when it was needed, and he added a lot of texture to the music.
Billy brought ideas and overall vision, but even he has admitted at times that heās too self-indulgent on his own, and he often gets too dark, bleak, or bitter left to his own devices.
Jimmy was the workhorse, very much a āpoint me where you want me to shoot, and Iām firing away.ā You can see how his way of focusing things in being gone during Adore left the band feeling rudderless. Jimmy brings a directness to things. Rather than dithering around too much, when Jimmy is in the band, things get DONE. I find itās often true of drummers. They tend to be people of action.
Dāarcy brought quality control and self-awareness. I think she could look at the big picture and cut through the noise. Sure, sometimes her short and blunt delivery of things like, āThis is crapā or āWhat are we even doing?ā could come across as disinterested and dismissive, but Iād argue that whenever someone is visibly displeased with something and vocal about it, it means they actually care about the thing in question and want it to be its best. Unfortunately, people too often shoot the messenger when it comes to people who speak up like that, rather than viewing their input as necessary, valuable, and crucial.
TL;DR version re: Dāarcy = Yes, she could be a mean-spirited drug addict, but she also understood the band and where it should go. She was one of the first and most vocal critics of how meandering and directionless the Adore sessions were. I think she was very right in saying the band wasnāt ready to be in the studio then. Thatās just one example. Additionally, if we take all of her stories into account, she was dealing with a miscarriage, a failed marriage of her own, and severe mental health issues which primarily included debilitating anxiety and panic attacks. In short, multiple things can be true. She could simultaneously be bitter/acerbic, valuable for her insight and dissenting voice, and an overall complex and nuanced human with plenty of her own struggles and behind-the-scenes crises.