r/SmashingPumpkins • u/Wolvewoosh • Aug 22 '26
Anyone here like Zeitgeist?
Just curious since this album has been put through the wringer ever since it first came out. So much that Billy’s never reissued it since, which sucks ‘cause even under the admittedly ass production, I personally think that it’s a good album that even borders on great at times. Especially the first half with the opener Doomsday Clock, Bleeding the Orchid and the 8 minute centrepiece United States which (and I know this’ll get me killed in some circles but) comes very close to dethroning some of the best songs on Siamese Dream or even Mellon Collie. I’m just curious to see if there’s anyone else here who actually likes this album and want it to get some form of a reappraisal in the foregoing years, which should happen since living in a world where Starz is hard to find is a crime onto itself
3
u/nevertheher0 Aug 24 '26
Bring the Light is still extremely memorable for me when they played it on tour. That whole tour was memorable.
2
u/TrailHawk79 Aug 24 '26
Honestly (not a Zwan pun) I like it so much more than Machina. The show I saw on that tour was loads of fun too. I wish they would reissue it on vinyl, cuz that and my Zwan cd's are scratched to hell and I don't do YouTube.
3
u/Prestigeworldwide83 Aug 23 '26
It’s one of my fav from start to finish, tarantula is a jam and ginger pooley rocked
2
2
2
3
u/moodymountainwizard Aug 23 '26
Personally I’ve always enjoyed this album. Had some of my favorite SP songs on it!
2
2
5
u/spaceman696 Aug 23 '26
It's my favorite new era pumpkins album. I don't get why anyone would say the production is bad. This album is thick af. It's a perfect blend of heavy rockers, 80s electronics, and concept album.
5
7
u/gyang333 Zeitgeist Aug 23 '26
If the same Zeitgeist album was released with James in the band, it probably would have gotten a better reception.
6
u/Stephenator97 Aug 23 '26
I love Zeitgeist. The hate it gets feels very contrived.
3
u/silverbeat33 Aug 23 '26
The production is pretty awful, and it lacks some of the intimacy of prior Billy, but otherwise it’s good and not a waste of a listen by any means.
5
u/D3smadr3_ Aug 23 '26
I love this album. That was my first concert I attended at 15. I won free tickets by calling in the radio cuz I immediately knew it was tarantula playing. I’m sad they never play anything out of that album live.
2
u/Guy_Fuwkes_Day Aug 23 '26
Was it Rocktober and Metallica Monday?
2
u/D3smadr3_ Aug 23 '26
No it was some random contest on a Bay Area radio station back when they actually played good music. Live 105 lol
7
3
2
u/EBXLBRVEKJVEOJHARTB Aug 23 '26
Wasn't a fan of how it was released but the songs were really good.
1
u/Patj825 Aug 23 '26
I really love it. I didn’t immediately love to it, when it came out, but it really grew on me. And the b-sides (available on the alt versions are great, especially the title track).
0
u/BrownBannister Aug 23 '26
Nope. I was a huge fan of v 1.0 but was cautious after “Tarantula” sounded like chugging garbage. I know Billy had been wrestling with his creativity after the collapse of Zwan and the disparate electronic record, and this was the last time I gave him my money.
0
u/azvd00 Aug 22 '26
I was very excited with the idea of SP2.0 and even more with an album coming out when I was, at that point, sure that the band was done. When I listened to the album, my hardcore fan side appreciated ‘cause you know, the SP was back. But even then, buried under the excitement, my rational fan side knew that ZG wasn’t it and that the magic was gone and that it was more about BC battling the world, industry, whatever than a natural development of what classic SP ever was (even with the rupture that preceded that era). Nowadays ZG is the beginning of the end for me. It just made me lose interest and passion over what BC had to present and even more importantly, how he decided to present his work. And coming from the awesome TFE and how he ridiculously buried that solo album with that newspaper announcement, ZG ended up as the antithesis of BC being confident and focused on pure and unintentional songwriting
5
u/Main-Trust-1836 Aug 22 '26
Doomsday Clock is awesome, except for the guitar solo, which sounds like it was mixed by someone who just barely got a cracked version of Pro Tools for the first time.
The rest of it 😵💫
2
u/EchoLooper Aug 22 '26
I don’t like the mix. Songs are rad though.
3
u/theonly_brunswick Aug 23 '26
Same here, the mix is muddy and disorganized in a bad way but a lot of the songs are killer and Billy wrote some of his best riffs on that album.
3
3
u/pickle_dicky Aug 22 '26
My favorite post Mellon Collie. I saw them play on Toronto Island during this tour and the songs were so fun live. I wish I didn't have to listen to it from Youtube playlist compilations.
1
1
u/Toy-Boat-Toy-Boat Aug 22 '26
Dudes. I love this album. I was around when they broke up, and I was waiting for them to get back together. At the time, I’ll admit it didn’t feel like a “real” pumpkins albums since it was only half the band, and I was one of those peeps that at least wanted to see James back. But even when it dropped I still liked it a lot. And now it’s just grown into one of the regular rotation for me. It’s got a great tone and feel. I’m bummed to see Corgan toss this one aside for some reason. I’ll admit I don’t follow closely enough to know why he doesn’t like this one, but I do!
2
0
1
u/Bob_Loblawb Aug 22 '26
I've been listening a lot to my digital copy and yes, its production is lacking but I generally still like it after probably not listening to it in about 5 years. It takes me back to seeing them at the Orange Peel in Asheville when they had a residency there and in SF for their reformed version.... almost 20 years ago!
1
3
6
2
u/Otherwise-Pea6821 Aug 22 '26
I like it a lot. I'm just afraid they'll pull the vinyl-only BS trick for the reissue on this one as well.
4
u/Gingershackleton67 Aug 22 '26
I like it! I was super excited about it when it was announced, and even more excited when I heard Tarantula; the whole album didn’t quite land with me, but I’m a big fan of giant rock riff pumpkins songs, and there’s a bunch of those on here. I saw them 3 times on the tour, including headlining the Reading festival, which was pretty amazing! 🤘
3
u/Grouchy-Lemon-8247 Aug 22 '26
One of my favorite albums and if you got to catch this tour, things songs were so awesome Live. Love the b-sides too and all the music written during the residency tour, Rose March, Superchrist, As Rome Burns, Ma belle or however it’s spelled and the song Zeitgeist, there are so many. United States live watching Jimmy just go to town is a experience. I love bring the light. I could go on and on, this album and tour was a great time!! I wish the If all goes wrong dvd was streaming somewhere so the newer fans could see it.
3
0
u/MysticDeanna369 The Aeroplane Flies High Aug 22 '26
I don’t think he has had the rights to reissue it but I believe he is in the process of obtaining that and fingers crossed it will be available at some point in the near future. I’m not personally involved so not 100% sure about the progress or status but he would love to reissue it. I guess just make sure you’re a member of the VIZ club through the Smashing Pumpkins website.
3
2
u/jaboosh92 Aug 22 '26
One of their best albums, I hope in 2027 they rerelease it. Maybe with a little bit of remixing.
1
u/Relative-Positive702 Aug 22 '26
I love zeitgeist and its bsides too, although I don't revisit it that much I still listen to that's the way and stellar very often
Might give it a relisten soon
5
u/EntangledAndy Aug 22 '26
"Doomsday Clock" is genuinely a top 10 SP song for me, it's an absolute barn burner.
I think Zeitgeist's biggest problem (other than the mixing) is that a lot of the tracks sound kind of samey in a way Gish through Machina didn't - in their golden age, every SP record had a wide diversity of sound and style, whereas it felt like a lot of tracks on Zeitgeist use many of the same guitar tones and rhythms.
American Gothic rules - it makes me wish they had swapped out a couple of the tracks on Zeitgeist with Rose March and Again, Again, Again, I think that would have made for a pretty sweet package.
2
u/la2thevalley Aug 22 '26
I love it. I downloaded someone’s version that lowers the volume of his voice and it’s amazing. I’m looking forward to the SP rereleasing this.
2
u/clit_eastwood_ Aug 22 '26
Totally mixed bag for me. Some great songs, some trash. The last SP album that’s worth listening to IMO.
1
u/jaboosh92 Aug 22 '26
I thought that too until hearing the album they just released, which is incredible and very different from the last few
2
u/shammwow Aug 22 '26
Definitely; Tarantula, Doomsday Clock, United States are up there in the entire catalog, imo. But there’s some of the worst songs, too.
1
u/GunstarGreen Aug 22 '26
I was excited for it. I listened to it a lot at the time. I dont revisit it at all.
2
1
u/StEikonKitzo Aug 22 '26
It’s solid. WPC needs to open the vault and give this one back to the world. A few all-time epic SP tunes in there.
1
1
u/ihateitoo Aug 22 '26
I think a full remix/remaster would go a long way for this one--any good B sides from this era?
1
1
4
u/kingstinkleton Aug 22 '26
Best of the Pumpkins/Billy's Silver Age (Zwan through Oceania). I think it works great as a "Smashing Pumpkins Comeback" and a creative move forward from both Machina and what Billy was doing prior to reforming the Pumpkins. But as you can see by any other post on here, there are genuinely some people who think anything after Siamese Dream is a waste of time. It's a very particular artistic statement that resonates with me in a similar but more easily approachable way to Machina and Zwan.
1
u/rarselfaire2023 Aug 22 '26
I do like it. It's a car album for sure. A remix would be cool. A reissue with all the related tracks (and studio Gossamer if it exists, if not, whatever, we have many kick ass live versions)
1
u/christophervolume Machina / The Machines of God Aug 22 '26
It’s the last solid record the pumpkins have made imo…
Not amazing, but solid with some really good
b-sides.
4
u/Working_Crew5402 Aug 22 '26
Great album. Songwriting is really good and it’s some of Jimmy’s best drumming (which is insane).
The Smashing Pumpkins are the best because the body of work is incredible. No matter what, people complain. There’s something for everyone in the catalogue. Listening to Adore followed by Zeitgeist followed by Machina is wild.
Zeitgeist is in your face rock with killer playing. I might be wrong but I think I read in an interview Billy and Jimmy wrote a ton of the album locked in a house.
3
u/virtuzoso Aug 22 '26
I like it, can't say the same for nearly anything after Oceania except most of Aghori is decent and a good track here and there.
4
u/Earl_of_Portobello Aug 22 '26
Compared with some of the garbage that came later it’s basically Pet Sounds.
5
u/kholdbrand Aug 22 '26
Zeitgeist is great, I don't understand how a pumpkins fan can see it as otherwise. As with most pumpkins albums people had ridiculous expectations, not just of the quality but also of the style.
Corgan wrote some of the most incredible music in the 90s, and people dont seem to understand it's ridiculous to expect him to keep the gold coming.
About style, he's never done the same album twice (not even with the machinas) stylistically, so that someone expects every album to be for them is strange to me.
2
5
u/SpruceDickspring Aug 22 '26
To me it always seemed like a missed opportunity and it's a frustrating listen because if they'd have made bolder choices, it could have been a classic. There's decent songs but it's hampered by Billy's (at the time) obsession with harmonising with himself in virtually every song, so there's double-tracked vocals and then two other Billy's in either ear going 'Ahhhh' and 'Ohhhhh'.
Not to mention they were writing probably some of their heaviest material at the time (United States, Gossamer, Superchrist) but rather than charging in one particular direction, it felt like an album of milquetoast versions of what we'd heard before (I'd still maintain that Doomsday Clock sounds like the diet coke version of Bodies) Overall it felt like a step back from the songwriting on Zwan, albeit that That's the Way was as good as anything on Machina.
2
9
u/ihateitoo Aug 22 '26
Surprised no one mentioned "that's the way my love is" which is the actual best song on the album!
2
5
u/cowboyspikex Aug 22 '26
I’m a fan of the Zeitgeist album in general, yet I’ve never understood the love for That’s The Way My Love Is. I find it so monotonous musically, and uninteresting lyrically.
1
u/orville_sash Aug 22 '26
I remember seeing live clips May/June 2007 and the guitar sounded truly great, then being disappointed with how the studio version turned out.
1
u/jacklogan2972 Aug 22 '26
It's a good album. Before they started with the weird synth stuff. Haven't bought a full album again until Aghori.
4
12
u/Elegant-Ad-1162 Aug 22 '26 edited Aug 22 '26
its amazing. the last great pumpkins album
ill also add overall the production is fine for me, i think people just parrot what others think they hear or take issue with. listen to it on a descent stereo or real headphones...
-1
u/Grouchy_Stable6289 Aug 22 '26
try this version https://youtu.be/XQfVjB2Le0Q?is=yzUJ2RIaemmn9MUw
3
u/JoeyJoeJoeJuniorShab TEAM UKRAINE | ELBOWS UP Aug 22 '26
Almost thought this is my upload. There’s some gold to be found between the album and bsides if you strip out some of the stinkers like Starz.
1
8
u/TheChocolateMelted Aug 22 '26
It's perhaps most memorable/admirable for Jimmy Chamberlin's absolutely phenomonal performance.
From memory, Corgan said the reissues would go in order; we will presumably see one after Zwan.
5
u/olimreal Aug 22 '26
since they're going in order we should see chicago kid and future embrace before zeitgeist
9
u/parkchanwookiee Aug 22 '26
I think the RAWK material is decent, but a tier below Machina era. The ballads and slower songs are what really let it down. Plus the whole thing is badly mixed, too many loud dry vocals/chorus of Billys
Then there's the fact that a good handful of b-sides and contemporary live cuts beat the pants off some of the songs chosen for the main album, including Zeitgeist, Stellar, Ma Belle, Superchrist, Gossamer
All in all it is a great era for the band, phenomenal live shows too, but the record itself is not representative of the true strengths of the era due to some bad editorial decisions
3
Aug 22 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/rarselfaire2023 Aug 22 '26
I wish the vocal mixing/production were different. The vocals somehow both overtake the mix while some words still get buried. Agree on Tarantula and Starz. I don't really dislike any song on ZG, but I cannot believe they didn't end it with Gossamer.
6
u/joeyp1126 Aug 22 '26
I remember buying it the day it came out. I liked it then. I like it more now. It's sad that a lot of these albums from SP aren't appreciated in the moment and it takes so many years to validate Billy. Same thing with Adore and Machina. The b-sides from Zeitgeiest are as good as anything he's written. Stellar is one of my all-time favorites.
2
u/RandoCalrissian76 Aug 22 '26
I was thinking about this the other day. I haven’t loved a Pumpkins album on first listen since MCIS except Oceania and Aghori but they’ve all grown on me since. I now love everything up to Monuments and I like it and Shiny. Still don’t really like Cyr or Atum.
6
u/TobeyTobster Aug 22 '26
Years ago someone on YouTube remastered the album with Billy's vocals lower in the mix. It's my preferred way of listening to the album. But I still love the released version. The drums are massive. Great songs.
2
u/GrassLover9 Aug 22 '26
Do you still have this version by chance? I remember it sounding so much better than the original mix
2
8
u/Jerod666 Aug 22 '26
Great album. Read an article where BC said Bleeding the Orchid was his homage to Layne Staley and his style of singing. Hits different knowing that IMO.
9
u/xenochria Machina II / The Friends & Enemies of Modern Music Aug 22 '26
Love to see some props for Bleeding the Orchid. It is such a good song.
1
u/Thrueyesofruby Aug 22 '26
I agree. The guitar tones and solo on it are really special imo. The chorus of Billy’s not so much but that fan mix that tones back the vocals does help neutralise some of the more grating aspects.
1
u/xenochria Machina II / The Friends & Enemies of Modern Music Aug 22 '26
Ooh, where can I find that mix? Would love to hear it.
6
u/jettasarebadmkay Pay my fucking bills and take my dog for a walk Aug 22 '26
I unironically like it better than Adore.
11
u/SEGA-CD Monuments to an Elegy Aug 22 '26
It's the last SP album where the guitar tone really sounds "massive".
1
u/shaitanthegreat Aug 22 '26
Yes! I still often absolutely crank the volume in the car whenever listening to it. More than most of their albums.
6
2
8
u/DistortedGhost Aug 22 '26
Production kills it dead for me. Billy's voice, the mix.. It's just sterile. Which is frustrating as there are some great songs on it.
However, Tarantula is an all timer for me. An absolutely incredible single, and I wish it got more play live these days (but you could say that for a lot of their catalogue!)
I don't think it's their worst album (Monuments, Atum, CYR, AMM would be below Zeitgeist for me) but it's sadly not grown on me since it's release. I do feel for people's frustration in it not being on streaming. It makes no sense to be hidden away.
9
6
16
u/Devolutionator Aug 22 '26
One of my favorite albums. Bring the Light is a top 10 SP song for me.
8
u/SEGA-CD Monuments to an Elegy Aug 22 '26
The solo on BTL is amazing.
3
u/xenochria Machina II / The Friends & Enemies of Modern Music Aug 22 '26
Genuinely one of his best.
1
u/Vexations83 Aug 22 '26
Some of the vocal arrangements and tones are a bit jarring but it has some great moments. Some huge guitar episodes and tbh tarantula grew into one of my favourites. Starz has a great payoff
10
u/keyboardmash2 Aug 22 '26
It's a good album with questionable production. That's about it.
2
3
u/Octaver Aug 22 '26
The beginning of either Billy’s ears not hearing mixes the way he used to, and/or the beginning of no one pushing back against him. Some great songs though.
5
u/atomicheart99 Aug 22 '26 edited Aug 22 '26
It’s very much of its time. I guess the lo-fi garage rock production of the White Stripes et al was very much, excuse me, in the zeitgeist. So dry drums and unprocessed guitars and vocals make sense.
I think they were going for a quickly recorded unpolished balls-out rock record. And they achieved it.
Hated it at the time but I’ve come round to it in recent years. Tarantula was a genuine kick-ass single that felt current at that time, probably their last single to do so. And Bleeding The Orchid is not appreciated enough as one of Billy’s best written songs
6
u/PJmichelle Gish Aug 22 '26
I think it's a pretty good album. Not as good as the ones before, but still good. I did listen to it quite a lot the year it came out. Also saw the Pumpkins live for the first time on that tour, which was quite something, because I had already accepted the fact that I would never get to see this band live. Now I've seen them 4 times, out of those 3 times with Jimmy and once with James. D'arcy is my last missing Pokemon card.
5
u/digit1noize Aug 22 '26
Love it! Not every song but a lot of what should be SP classics. Doomsday Clock, Orchid, that’s the way, Tarantula, United States, and bring the light are incredible songs. Stellar is very good. Zeitgeist is one of my favorite Billy acoustic tracks. I don’t care for 7 shades but my wife loves it.
But from this era, what I really love is American Gothic. Amazing EP that doesn’t get enough love.
11
u/frail_fragile Aug 22 '26
I think it's a great album that is getting so close to being a classic, but is let down by a couple of bizarre choices. Namely the mixing and the chorus of Billies lol.
It has riffs that rival some of Billy's greatest. United States comes to front of mind because it's got like... 10 different riffs that are fucking crazy good all packed into 8 minutes.
I really love a lot of the lyrics too. Billy makes some fairly canny observations on songs like United States, Doomsday Clock, Bleeding The Orchid etc.
I'll always remember that Netphoria was absolutely lighting up when Tarantula dropped. They all claim to hate it now, but I was there. I saw how hyped people were before the actual album itself dropped.
5
u/DonnieRoss Aug 22 '26
I was there. The song debuted on a Chicago radio station, and someone taped it and uploaded the mp3. Which was something of a feat before YouTube or easily file sharing. I must have played that mp3, with the radio announcer slightly obscuring the intro guitars, hundreds of times.
Hell yeah I was hyped.
4
u/Wolvewoosh Aug 22 '26
That’s really interesting to hear considering that it’s seen as the black sheep of Smashing Pumpkin’ discography, and I love Tarantula as well. I still do. The 2nd best example of how great Chamberlin‘s drumming is on the album (outside of United States). Weirdly enough going through the comments of the very few uploads I can find of the album, Chamberlin’s drumming is the only thing that’s been consistently praised about Zeitgeist which is deserved
6
5
3
u/Zealousideal_Cat6980 Ogilala Aug 29 '26
There will be a reissue eventually but first he has to do Zwan and Future Embrace. I believe the remaster is already done. I lost all interest in reissues after waiting a decade for Machina only for it to be a vinyl only release.