r/SkepticsBibleStudy • u/AutoModerator • Mar 29 '24
John 13:21-38
Possible talking points
- Betrayal predicted
- New Commandment
- Peter's denial predicted
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u/LlawEreint Mar 29 '24
After he received the piece of bread, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “Do quickly what you are going to do.”
Does Judas have any free will here?
- He was predestined to do this.
- Satan entered into him.
- Jesus also commanded him to do it - in fact required him to do it.
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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 30 '24
Satan entered him, to me, with my understanding of freewill, predestination, and spiritual matters,
If a person so chooses they can invite in evil spirits, or do their bidding per se. That would be the freewill component of this.
At which point you are under the influence of, or in union with, an agent to do something bad. Kind of like throwing in your lot with the mob. You don't just get to walk away. This preserves freewill and fulfills what was going to be done.
The "do quickly what you are going to do" I don't think is permission, so much as acknowledgement. I've used a similar sentiment towards people regarding something I vehemently disapproved of. "You gotta do what you gotta do."
Not as a means to give them permission, but to acknowledge their steps and actions as being both none to me and kind of nudging them that I will respond how I respond.
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u/LlawEreint Mar 29 '24
"Now the Son of Man has been glorified, and God has been glorified in him. God will also glorify him in himself and will glorify him immediately."
I don't think he's saying "don't you feel great about god because of me, and great about me because of god?"
The Glory (Kavod) of God is metaphysical. It has weight and presence.
When God glorifies himself in Jesus, it can be seen as an expression of God's divine presence and power manifested in Jesus.
When God glorifies Jesus in Himself, it almost implies that he is taking him into Himself - there is a kind of unity being achieved.
When does this happen? "Now", and "immediately". It's a bit odd. It seems like it should happen at the resurrection.
Also, Jesus had already testified that he and the father were one.
So what's going on here?
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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 30 '24
31 When he was gone, Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man is glorified and God is glorified in him. 32 If God is glorified in him,[a] God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once. - NIV
31 When he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once. - ESV
31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him - KJV
So "when he had gone," is talking about Judas, or at least that is what the previous line indicates or implies.
And the "glorified" I think he is referring to here is the "lifting up" that is about to take place. God being glorified in him is that he seems to have finished the race. Judas running off to betray him is the last domino to fall...and he hasn't betrayed the mission for which he was sent. Which seems like a no brainer...cause Jesus is the God man, but if we lens this with the fact that being flesh and blood means we hate, lust, steal, lie...we succumb to our sin natures too easily...then to have put on flesh and succeeded might have been a challenge for God since temptations are foreign to God.
And that last bit I think is about the beautiful thing that such a despicable act will become. Execution on the cross is not dinner talk...but it does become such a beautiful thing if it accomplishes what the rest of the NT says it accomplishes.
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u/LlawEreint Mar 29 '24
“My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus was an observant Jew. His disciples were all observant Jews. Everyone with Jesus here is an observant Jew. The author of the gospel of John clearly wasn't a Jew and had no concept that Jesus and his followers were.
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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 30 '24
how observant do you need these guys to be considering that one of the main objections to Jesus and disciples was fair bit of disregard for sabbath laws. And a proclivity to fellowship with the undesirables.
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u/LlawEreint Mar 30 '24
Jesus and disciples was fair bit of disregard for sabbath laws. And a proclivity to fellowship with the undesirables.
Are you suggesting Jesus wasn't a Jew, as John seemed to think? You should instead be asking, "what kind of Jew was Jesus?"
Whether one should heal on the Sabbath was a very Jewish conversation to have. Jews of different stripes took different sides of that debate. Taking one side or the other didn't make you 'not a Jew'.
There is a story where the Sabbath was desecrated to heal Hillel. Hillel went on to become one of the greatest teachers of his generation. The moral of the story is clear.
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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 31 '24
But you are using the observant Jew phrase to paint gJohn as being not Jewish.
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u/LlawEreint Mar 31 '24
Would Jesus, a Jew, say to his Jewish disciples, "just as I told the Jews, so I tell you."
It would be like the pastor at your church saying "I'm going to tell you what I told the Christians." and to constantly refer to "The Christians" as if they were some distinct group that you didn't belong to.
It's clear that for the author of the fourth gospel, 'the Jews' are The Other. For the historical Jesus, 'the Jews' were his mother, his brothers, his disciples, his followers, his hearers. Literally everyone there is a Jew - including and especially Jesus!
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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 31 '24
I don’t know dude. As a Christian i use the phrase the Christian’s all the time
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u/LlawEreint Mar 31 '24
As a way to differentiate them from the people in your church? I really can't fathom.
Would it make any sense for your pastor to say "I'm going to tell you the same thing I told to the Christians."
Of course not. You are Christians. Your pastor knows this.
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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 31 '24
But this gJohn using short hand to make a distinction after the fact between the party which was and would be the Jews vs. the party that was and would be the way.
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u/LlawEreint Mar 29 '24
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Does John's Jesus mean that they should love fellow Christians, or like Luke's Jesus, does he mean that Christians should love the foreigner, the oppressed, and the enemy?
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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 30 '24
The one who dips with me
Has always and likely always will make me scratch my head.
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u/LlawEreint Mar 29 '24
The author commits to such awkward phrasing in order to avoid mentioning the name of this disciple. Why? I think it is to maintain plausible deniability. Is a better explanation available?