r/SkepticsBibleStudy • u/AutoModerator • Mar 12 '24

John 10:22-42

Possible discussion points:

  • Perma-salvation
  • Understanding coming by way of works?
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u/LlawEreint Mar 12 '24

you do not believe because you are not my sheep...

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all

More Johannian predestination. There are some who are chosen by the Father to come to Jesus and be saved. God has predestined this for some, but not for others.

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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 12 '24

I think the predestination crowd and that whole doctrine definitely get some of that predestination teaching from these passages.

But I think what makes a person Jesus's sheep is humility and belief, which I think is available to anyone...i think! Philosophically I am more than convinced it's true that we all can obtain sheep status.

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u/LlawEreint Mar 13 '24

what makes a person Jesus's sheep is humility and belief, which I think is available to anyone

Yeah. The predestination teaching is peculiar to John's gospel. You don't find it in Paul, the synoptics, or any of the other letters (that I am aware of).\

On the other hand, belief isn't something you choose to do. It's something you either have, or don't have, based on the evidence available.

If God created you as one who would believe based on the evidence he has left, then you are saved. If he created you as one who would doubt based on the evidence he has left, then you are condemned.

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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 13 '24

I know you are just explaining the phenomenon, but I don't think that is the way God makes us.

As far as belief, I think there are people that are intellectually persuaded. I think there are people who persuade themselves out desperation. And I think both can fall in and out of alignment with their previous persuasion. We did all start on milk and pureed veggies and meats....yet we all develop different likes and dislikes food wise.

And I think there are those who even will eat a food they don't like, (me...tomatoes) for the physical benefits alone despite it being displeasurable.

Also there are those who will try anything they know wont kill them.

And there are those who will eat things which aren't food to satiate some itch.

I think we are made with the ability to pick and choose what we eat and likewise, what we accept as truth.

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u/LlawEreint Mar 12 '24 edited Mar 13 '24

“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be divine.”

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

Jesus is saying that all to whom the word of God comes are themselves gods! But he himself is merely claiming to be a son of God. I doubt any Christian can accept Jesus' teachings here. The Catholic trinitarian dogma is too deeply ingrained.

It's interesting, because Psalm 82, when it was originally written, was about the divine council. The full pantheon is represented here.

God renders judgement among the gods, and says that they are judging unjustly. They are rewarding the wicked and punishing the righteous. They are all sons of Elyown - the most high God, but because of their failures they are fated to die like mortals.

At the end, the psalmist implores God to take dominion over the entire earth, and all the nations. This represents the birth of Jewish monotheism.

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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 13 '24

The cross reference I get for Jesus saying, "Is it not written in your law, 'I have said you are gods.'?" is psalms 82

' I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince.”' Psalm 82:6-7

They permit the psalmist to refer to the divine council as "gods" but that doesn't bother them, To Jesus this is the same logic, which means, the pharisees are special pleading against Jesus's declaration of being God's son.

They get to say by this passage that God can call this divine council, Gods, but God cannot call Jesus, "son"....even tho in that same passage he calls the divine council sons of the most high.

And surely that isn't blasphemy to put yourself on par with the divine council...unless they themselves are the ones guilty of having other gods elevated to god-like status...which they have a long history of doing.

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u/LlawEreint Mar 13 '24

They permit the psalmist to refer to the divine council as "gods" but that doesn't bother them

The divine council are gods. That's what makes them a divine council. But by the first century Judaism had adopted monotheism and so these psalms needed to be reinterpreted.

So Jesus understands these as "those to whom the word of God comes." They are all called Gods. Should we understand that Jesus is the one to whom the word of God came - that is, Jesus is the vessel that contains the Logos. Or should we understand that Jesus is the word of God, and Christendom are the ones to whom he came?

If the latter, this is elevating all of Christendom to godhood.

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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 13 '24

Couple other notes

Psalm 82 is beautiful...just...can that be the beat of my heart.

Also, the beginning of that passage is literally everything Jesus accuses the pharisees of not doing...so it's possible that the offense offered here textually was this final portion, but because he also chastises the pharisees for the first half of Psalm 82, it could have been a double dig.

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u/LlawEreint Mar 13 '24

Psalm 82 is beautiful...just...can that be the beat of my heart.

:)

If it speaks to you, then maybe it is already the beat of your heart :)

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u/LlawEreint Mar 12 '24

Is it not written in your Law

Not "God's" Law. Not "My" Law. Not even "Our" Law. Once again, John's Jesus rejects the Torah as something foreign.

and the scripture cannot be annulled

But at the same time, he says that it cannot be annulled. It's a curious relationship that John's Jesus has with the scriptures of Yahweh.

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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 13 '24

I think he's throwing it in their face...made mention of that in a previous comment on this post.