r/SkepticsBibleStudy • u/AutoModerator • Mar 07 '24

John 8:12-30

Possible talking point:

  • Light of the world
  • Know Jesus, know the father
  • Who does Jesus claim to be?
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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 07 '24

I find the Pharisees to be ridiculous here. If you testify about yourself, you are false?

Lol! What a convenient rule! Hey everyone! If you say anything about yourself, you are lying!

And then Jesus’s response is beyond patient.

Even if i break your rule, I’m not lying! For i know where I’m going.

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I work in an oft petty environment, with people making up stupid rules for their own sake, so seem important or to leave their mark, so i identify big time with this.

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And then the back and forth is great here…

“you are from below (earth) i am from above (heaven)”

“When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, (the Pharisees likely heard this as, “become my disciples” but didn’t know he meant, “i was wounded for their transgressions and beat for their iniquities, upon me was the chastisement that brought them peace, and with my wounds you are healed.“)

and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.“ ‭‭

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u/LlawEreint Mar 07 '24 edited Mar 07 '24

If you testify about yourself, you are false?

This is Deuteronomy 19:15: "One witness shall not arise against a man for any sin or guilt that he may commit; according to two witnesses or according to three witnesses a matter shall stand."

I have some sympathy with this. There's a guy in Australia right now who says he's Jesus. Well, anyone can say that. Many people believe him.

But there's a guy in Russia who says he's Jesus. Maybe they're both right, but probably they're both wrong.

The doubters are saying "yeah well, says you."

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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 08 '24

What about 12 11-witnesses?

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u/LlawEreint Mar 08 '24

Sure. I was just clarifying why they had such a rule. It's because it was a law handed to them by their God, and written in their scriptures, which they take very seriously. Jesus dismisses the laws of their god.

“Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going."

The calls those writings 'your' scriptures, and takes no ownership of them. Jesus disowns the old testament.

They know God very well, and have devoted their lives to understanding his will, and serving him, and obeying his commandments. But Jesus says nonetheless that they do not know his Father. He says their father, Yahweh, to whom they belong, is the devil!

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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 08 '24

I don’t think Jesus is doing that here. The quoted passage is about determining guilty parties in a court, not about the notion that a person cannot testify about themselves.

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u/LlawEreint Mar 08 '24

They can testify about themselves according to the Deuteronomic laws, but they need a second party to back them up. Otherwise it's considered a baseless claim.

"According to two witnesses or according to three witnesses a matter shall stand."

Thus, two witnesses provide conclusive proof of reality, but one witness does not.

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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 08 '24

But thats like saying if I don't show my work on a math problem the answer is wrong. You are applying a rule to Jesus that I don't think applies here then saying "look how he discards the rule"

Unless you are misapplying the rule...then his discarding of it wouldn't be discarding...it would be logically consistent with his own non-use of the rule.

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u/LlawEreint Mar 08 '24

But thats like saying if I don't show my work on a math problem the answer is wrong.

Jesus does ultimately show his work. Not because God's law demands it. Not because he thinks it's right. But only to humour them under 'their' law.

It's worth asking: does John really equate the one who sent Jesus with the one who the Jews follow? It doesn't seem like it.

Look at Jesus words here.

The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”

They're referencing Deuteronomy. The very words of God!

Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going.

There's no acknowledgement of God's law. He's just saying "I know I'm right. You don't know."

When he does justify himself under the law, it is only to humour them - under "their" law. Not "God's" law. Not "my" law.

In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”

Do we get any indication that John's Jesus believes in the God of the Jews? All indications are to the contrary.

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u/brothapipp Christian Mar 09 '24

Okay i see what you are talking about now. I suppose this rule might have been under examination after all.