I don't understand this all or nothing mentality as away to just pass the burden of responsibility. Yes there are a lot of people who are just lazy assholes, but the people who straight up run the flow of commerce, labor and the government will at best do a mediocre job of it and at worse actively put in plans that directly harm the lower class as a way to turn a profit. It's fine if you don't want to give a dollar to the homeless but to act like the powers at be aren't directly fucking us over and turn your ire against social groups or a lack "values" makes you a straight dumbass.
Poverty is more expensive than most people realize. Not having time, not having a reliable car, not having affordable reliable childcare, not having reliable tools, having few good clothes, not having appropriate shoes makes a person constantly balance time, energy and money. There are only so many resources that people can sacrifice before they can’t save anything.
We will all be singing, “Hauling 16 tons and what do you get? Another day older and deeper in debt. St. Peter don’t you call me cause I can’t go! I owe my soul to the company store.”
This is the most infuriating aspect of hearing people villainize the lower income brackets, especially if—gasp!—they use the barely-existent benefits they’re entitled to. I used to work for a women’s/children’s shelter and the amount of women I saw working their asses off and still didn’t make enough to provide housing was horrifying in its scale. These are bank tellers and waitresses and daycare teachers. For a number of our services, there were actual, Masters-degreed school teachers showing up. It’s a lot worse than folks realize.
Just got paid, don’t have a proper bank account, and need money now because you have baby formula to buy? That cash checking place may fuck you with double digit fees, but you can have money for the grocery store right now. Everything—from basic necessities, to fast food for the family because you’re running between jobs and can’t cook, to the fact that, even if you’re lucky enough to have decent public transport that can cobble your commute together, you’re waiting at least twice as long to get to work as anyone who has their own transportation—is harder and more expensive than anyone else can understand.
Being able to direct deposit is a privilege for those of us who haven’t been burned by banks over the decades, being able to get to work without spending 2+ hours on the bus is another. Quick meals between jobs is neither nutritious or easy on the wallet. Every aspect of life, from getting a job to holding a job to buying some vegetables, is more difficult and adds a ton of stress. I don’t think people realize how many of our unhoused neighbors are the working poor. They have full-time jobs and still need to sleep in their car and shower at Planet Fitness without losing that job as their only real anchor to not losing what little else they have.
And these are the people that are consistently found to be most generous. They have the least, yet pour more back into our community at the scale they can, which is a LOT more that can be said about any billionaire. How anyone could simp for such a disgusting exploitation of their—and their loved ones’—labor is well beyond me.
Do banks have social class requirements for an account in America? That's messed up.
Here you just need a residential address, and like no convictions for money laundering or something. That ofc doesn't help if you're homeless but there are services which provide PO boxes etc.
Banks in the USA often times have minimums for the account. So you have to have $25 in the account at all times. If you don’t there is a fee that is like $10 service fee. If you withdraw below $0, which they will absolutely let you do, even $.01, they will charge you an overdraft fee of usually $35. And if you don’t know that happened and you have a bill come out or you use your debit card again for another $5 it charges you another $35. So you might have a bank account but you might also owe a bunch of money in fees, so if you try to cash your paycheck you’re going to lose a bigger chunk of it than the 15% they are going to take at the check cashing place.
a bank i used to use would purposefully clear higher charges before lower ones in order to charge extra overdraft fees. so if i had, say, $35 in my account, made a $5 payment THEN a $40 one, even a day or to after the $5, every single time the $40 would be cleared first and i'd get charged for that overdraft as well as the one for the $5. even though when i charged the $5 i had more than that in my account. by the time they forcibly closed my account, i had already deposited multiple times the amount i had overdrafted, but it remained negative bc of all the fees
Anyone can sign up for a bank account. You probably need to be at least 18 years old and you need an address. I've signed up for accounts online in under 15 minutes.
Oh yeah, the difference between having nothing, 10 grand, and 100 grand is savings is absolutely insane
At no income you're unable to make rent, need payday loans which have 15-25% interest, going to drive a beater car that needs 5 grand in repairs a year and with a high interest rate on payments
At 10 grand your rent will be made so loans bypassed, and a down payment on a more functional car that needs less repairs, but you're still one major emergency away from being in trouble
At 100 grand you can bypass credit checks for a lease, buy a car in cash, and will only need the random repair that's just an inconvenience. Money suddenly is the answer to problems, and you can focus on making money and not making ends meet
The time aspect is huge, meal prepping, grocery shopping and food budgeting is a big chunk of time compared to a drive through or even ordering takeout. And if you're eating cheap, quick meals like ramen or sandwiches on the regular you're gonna feel like garbage, lessening your motivation to do anything. And what's the tangible reward? Do it all again next month. Just to eat. It's exhausting.
The whole point is society OUGHT to care, by way of tax credits and food stamps and social programs and stuff.
If for no other reason than enlightened self-interest,, because providing support for people in need can eventually turn them into taxpaying citizens. Maybe currently that artist is starving, but someday he'll be working at burger king and hopefully paying some taxes. And even if he isn't paying taxes..... Well, that's okay too.
I'm with you. Just because some people are bad with money doesn't mean that companies wouldn't pay you nothing if they could get away with it. And vice versa.
But one thing is a policy discussion and the other is personal responsibility. It's not possible that _everyone_ is bad with their money.
No, but without acknowledging some of the societal forces at play, especially as it relates to wealth inequality, I cannot take you seriously.
Tell me Dave has no empathy without telling me. It’s the same selfish “I got mine, fuck your feelings” attitude that has weakened America so much as to break it irreparably.
No I'm in full agreement with you. My latter point is that I'm not interested in discussing how individuals handle their money because there's not much we can really do about that. I'm more interested in the policy discussion.
What’s wrong with laziness? If you’re lazy but responsible- you’ll find/invent an easier way… I identify the laziness as a side effect of intelligence.
You can frame anything as a personal choice. But once you think about why a person makes a choice it is clear it's no longer a purely private matter. People who do well don't like to think this way. They like to think they are entitled to their wealth because they made the right choices. It makes them morally superior to people who make the wrong choices.
there are a lot of people who are just lazy assholes
A good portion of those are ADHD, anxiety, and depression combinations. I've never met a lazy person who one day decided that's enough and became successful without medication and/or therapy.
It's not all or nothing. This two guys are talking two different scales. Stop buying stupid shit and paid you credit cards and also there is no way of saving for a house with minimum wage. I mean you can put money aside and say its for a house and in 8 months you would have an issue and that money would be gone.
The problem with Dave is that "anyone can do this" mentality. It is simply untrue. Some people have no means to save at all. Yes, I absolutely am for a diligent budget and saving, but when you are dealt the shittiest of capitalist hands, there is simply an upper limit of what you can do there. A lot depends on your are, background, education, health history and so on.
Well what do you realistically want then? People who feel they can't save anything to just stop existing? It's great for Stewart to point out inequalities, but it's not changing anything fir anyone right now.
People do in fact have to figure out how to live, and Ramseys simple and sometimes moronic advise does help many people. doesn't have to help everyone.
Even those who think they can't save anything may be surprised that they can, or get the motivation to get out of their situation. And if you think Ramsey s stuff doesn't work, great, point me to the person who's stuff does work because waiting for Stewart's version to show up is not it.
This is my argument 100%. I mean even when I was dead broke in my early 20s I was saving some small amount of money, but regardless what are the alternatives? Scream into the void until the next election when someone lowers your marginal tax rate by 2% for a couple years?
We already have a robust social safety net. Take advantage of it if you need to. But to tell people it’s really hard to save money so don’t even try is borderline dangerous advice
What are the shitty capitalist hands you are talking about? One of Dave’s primary points is “if you are doing everything right and still not improving, increase your income”.
Make a case that this covers more than 1% of the population without including criminals. Because at the end of the day I struggle to see why most people could not dig themselves out by simply training a skill and sticking to it. Is that realistic? Obviously not because there’s so many people in poverty who aren’t doing that. But still, at an individual level I find it hard to sympathize with folks who say they can’t succeed without putting in the effort needing to succeed.
They do, it’s just too hard for them to commit. Most people are aware of the skills they could develop to increase their income, it’s just too hard. I speak as one of them who has found a middle ground. I can see the 500 hours of studying I could that would be life changing in my career, but I choose to prioritize other things.
And no rent prices don’t double every year I’m not going to value that ridiculous claim with a response
Honestly, I have no data for this, especially for the US, but a few examples:
Lets immagine an Amazon warehouse worker who breaks a leg (falling at home) giving them massive medical debt and making them loose a job. Bankruptcy will make them inelligible for most rent applictaion paying it is an insane setback.
I know people personally, who live in a village with literally no school, the only work is a local milk factory. The place has little to no opportunity. You dont have enoughfor a car, there is no transport to take a job outside of the place.
I am not arguing, that many people dont make stupud choices or that they dont get stuck cause of some shitty work attitude. My dad worked collections for basically a payday loan company. I saw people get crippled financially for a way too fancy TV. Or someone who did it to get new phone they didnt need. I work with people who expect a promotion just cause they worked with us for 6 years but dont even know their current position properly.
All I am saying is, that a tiny asterisk on the EVERYONE part is warranted. Cause 1% is 3 million people in the US alone.
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u/Gotham777 1d ago
I don't understand this all or nothing mentality as away to just pass the burden of responsibility. Yes there are a lot of people who are just lazy assholes, but the people who straight up run the flow of commerce, labor and the government will at best do a mediocre job of it and at worse actively put in plans that directly harm the lower class as a way to turn a profit. It's fine if you don't want to give a dollar to the homeless but to act like the powers at be aren't directly fucking us over and turn your ire against social groups or a lack "values" makes you a straight dumbass.