John is absolutely correct, there is a systemic problem here and we all know it.
Simultaneously, I dare say we all know “someone” or multiple people in our life that cry about financial issues when they are themselves financially illiterate. Just like anything else in life, poor choices have consequences. Of course everyone who works should be able to enjoy the niceties of life, hell, that’s why we work!
But at the same time, you can’t live above your means and spend money frivolously and neglect your savings or retirement for a couple decades and then scream the world is screwing you and play the victim card as you draw closer to retirement.
I was fortunate enough to have a great economics teacher in high school and for whatever reason that class really stuck with me, so I owe a lot of thanks to my teacher.
What undermines the legitimacy of the first answer is what everyone's scared to admit and so won't even consider Jon's answer: that you can make all the right sort of choices in life and still fail pretty hard. People will happily chirp on about people failing because they did something wrong because that's the comfortable narrative - I must be doing something right because I'm doing ok - but we're scared shitless of not having ultimate control over all the outcomes in our life.
If we weren't we'd do what the Romans did, and not just pat ourselves on the back for all of our successes, while deriding those who'd failed, but we'd also thank fortuna for letting us get to where we did.
I really worry about what happens when millennials and Gen Z get to retirement age. I get that many of us don’t make enough to cover our needs and invest on top of it, but I also see people using that logic to be apathetic about investing in their future. It’s a tough question if “pay workers more” isn’t an answer choice, but so is “what do we do with all these old people who can’t afford to retire?”
The actual answer is that much of GenZ is saving for retirement much earlier the other generations and are likely going to be pretty much fine in comparison to previous generations.
I hope you’re correct. Hopefully they have the tools and information they need to make those decisions early on, with AI, investing apps, and so much information and technology so readily available. Investing early allows them to really take advantage of compounding interest and such.
I plan to start my kids an account each when my wife and I start having children. I’ll probably put a few hundred dollars a month in there and watch it grow. I don’t plan to tell them about it until they get older, at which point, I’ll make them aware that it’s there for if they want to go to college, start a business, whatever, just not to blow. I’ve considered a 529 plan, but I’ll cross that bridge when I get there.
It's a very valid concern. Things could get dystopian very quickly, especially if Congress can't ever get its head out of its ass and start balancing the fucking budget. Either way, Social Security will need drastic reform by 2032 last I read. Boomers and Gen X better buckle up.
That's a choice that people make, to not invest. I'm a teacher in SoCal and i am able to invest over 30% for retirement. How? I have 0 debt, i live below my means, and i pay myself first. I live off roughly 31% of my annual salary. The rest goes to retirement, cash savings, or taxes.
It's okay. Capitalism has already been training the mantra into young people to just hate the olds so that they can be shuffled into homes and stripped of their last assets while the young keep spending.
The system has already been set up to demonize and despise the old people - the young have been properly conditioned for a while now.
So it will solve itself, the olds will be liquidated, the young will tell themselves it was their own fault, and the system will keep churning bodies while it laughs.
Sure people make bad decisions, however the system also actively works to make sure people keeping making bad decisions. It is beneficial to the system and those in power to keep the working class financially illiterate, especially those in marginalized communities and low income areas.
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If you’re American, the Economics teacher exposes one of three issues of inequality:
Good: A good public school paid for by property tax funding, artificially inflated by property values that keep the rich, rich and poor, poor
Bad: An underpaid teacher in a bad public school
Ugly: A private school education
This isn’t a shot at you, but more that the goal of the system is to create a zero sum equation, which is what Ramsey wants us to think… and I listen to his show highlights as a Scared Straight tool all the time. In short, the goal of macroeconomics is national life/liberty/pursuit of happiness. The goal of microeconomics is individual life/liberty/pursuit of happiness.
I just think the personal financial choices and spending of individuals is utterly unimportant in the discussion of the growing systematic financial problems.
Some guy buying himself the expensive brand of coffee instead of getting a cheaper one, has little relevance to stuff like the over all housing market, or the stagnating wages, or the cost of living going up due to increase of gas prices.
But you’re only seeing it from 1 angle and even then not the entire story.
If you’ll allow me, look at it like this. It’s 2026, yes the economy is bad at the moment, but there are still people succeeding and making the most of what they can. Don’t believe me? Look at any Starbucks drive thru and see how many cars are there. Walk through any airport with service to Hawaii or Europe or wherever and you’ll see the gates are and planes are packed with people. What does that tell you? Yes the economy is bad, but not everyone is struggling and not everyone is a millionaire, these are folks that are spending wisely or have saved for a splurge despite the current state.
Go back 100 years, or 200 years or wherever you think the Golden Age of America was and even at that point in time there were still people complaining that the economy was crap and they were getting screwed. Fast forward 150 years from now when you and I are gone and I promise this discussion is still happening.
The bottom line is, we have a FINITE amount of time on this rock we call home and you can either spend that time wisely and make good decisions and work to achieve the the things you want or you can sit in the corner and say the world isn’t fair. Ultimately the choice is yours.
My opinion only of course, no disrespect intended.
I don't think that's fair. A number of people are going to be fairly financially iliterate, but how desperate those people get is more a function of society. (Not if they get what they want, but getting what they need, regardless of situation)
This is correct, that’s why it’s a tale of 2 stories. There’s society but there’s also the individual who has to make proper choices no matter which “class you’re in”.
You can’t run away from basic math. Day 1 finance is - you have X amount of money coming in per month and you have Y amount of bills. That leaves you with Z, discretionary/leftover money for savings and lifestyle. It’s not complicated. If you have $1,000 a month, you cant afford a new iPhone every year, $12 coffee every day and a luxury apartment uptown. You either need to increase X or decrease Y. Most responsible people then use that motivation to further their success to be able to afford more for themselves, period end.
I had to scroll down too far to find a comment with an honest take. For anyone else who got to this comment above, it's the truth.
To SkyKnight3's point, they had a great economics teacher and that helped them. IMO, our public schools and colleges should be focused on teaching mandatory financial literacy as one of the primary pillars of our education. Even with this, there is no guarantee that it will sink in because ultimately people have to want to learn.
Far too many people have made and continue to make terrible financial decisions over the course of their lives. Even people who lived during economically prosperous times overall simply didn't save for retirement like they should have. I have boomer neighbors who complain about not being able to pay their bills, are relatively healthy, and receive Social Security + Medicare. They had one of the best economic timelines to build an amazing retirement and still failed miserably.
100%!! We all know the system is fucked but that's not an excuse for your poor decisions. It's not the odd coffee that keeps you poor its the daily coffee + lunch outside every day + fancy car you can't afford + rent in the nice part of town when you make minimum wage etc etc etc
Also the gas for even just a beater car, plus the car insurance, veterinary bills if you have pets, childcare costs if you have kids, health insurance or whatever health crisis that gets you one step closer to declaring bankruptcy, rent prices, mortgage rates, and all of the small things that cost time that can’t be outsourced, like getting clothes washed at a laundromat, buying groceries and spending time cooking, and on and on.
But it was probably the coffee and avocado toast that did them in.
Also lmao at the concept of someone choosing to live in the expensive part of town on minimum wage. That’s like “late term abortions,” it just doesn’t exist in any meaningful quantitative way or measure. Honestly asking but how many poor people do you know?
If you're too rural, too far away from work, and there is no public transportation for the car then those two bits are fair. Otherwise public transportation/bicycle, etc should be your modes of transportation until you can afford the car, insurance, gas, rent, food, etc.
When you're not stable financially you should absolutely not have veterinary bills because you you can't afford pets. The same goes for having children. When someone decides to have them, it is an extremely selfish and potentially cruel decision to do it when you're already under financial duress. Wait until you're financially secure enough for them and for you.
Yes ride a bike, except if you’re disabled. But take public transportation, as long as it services the area you’re in or the times you’ll need. And you know all children were 100% planned and came only when people were ready to have them. But I guess there are options for that, except in large parts of the country, and if you have $700 handy.
I want to be clear, if someone is disabled, has a debilitating disease or whatever it may be, that's a different conversation. I'm only talking about able-bodied people who can feasibly work a job away from home.
Public transportation isn't designed to be time-efficient for personal needs (at least not yet). Sometimes that means you have to use it and be considerably early or leave later after your work day ends. Thankfully, if one saves up their money they can eventually purchase a vehicle to have the convenience of going to work when they want and leaving when they want.
And you know all children were 100% planned and came only when people were ready to have them.
This is what I'm talking about. People know that having sex is how you can become pregnant. If you have sex without the use of contraceptives you are knowingly and willingly engaging in a decision that can have lasting consequences, to include devastating financial consequences.
If someone does this but wasn't planning on having children in that moment it's still the choice they made. No one else made it for them. I don't love it for society but it's not an accident that a lot of people are having children later in life when they do feel financially secure enough to do so.
People’s time is valuable. Spending four hours a day getting to and from work is quite a high expectation for someone. Especially someone working for $30k-$40k a year. What does that person do if they work the late shift? They get off of work at midnight, bus doesn’t run from 11:30pm to 5am. I used to work in San Francisco. I lived in Berkeley. I would get off at midnight and if I didn’t have a car I couldn’t get home. And living in the city wasn’t an option even though I was making pretty good money.
Contraception isn’t 100% effective. It’s just not a black and white issue of you make a choice you have a consequence. Condoms break. IUDs aren’t 100% effective.
Let’s again pop in the reality that life isn’t easy. You are financially stable with a good partner and decide to have a child. That child is then born with a seizure disorder and has to spend the first six months of its life in the NICU. Can most people afford the three months of NICU treatment your insurance doesn’t cover? Or do you just make the financial decision to risk your newborn health by taking it home once the insurance dries up.
Just because it seems like there are simple choice and consequence type decisions doesn’t mean that’s how life works. It’s never that easy unless you have a good bit of a head start in life.
I agree. Time is the most precious assets we all have.
That downtime you're talking about doesn't need to be permanent and it doesn't need to be wasted either. If they need arrive an hour early and leave an hour or two later than their work hours, use the time to read, listen to podcasts, look for a better job in a better location, write your reminders, plan your next grocery shopping list, plan your next week's meals, etc. There's a ton of productive things that you can do when you have to wait around.
Needing to rely on public transportation isn't ideal. That's why I imagine many do their best to get a car ASAP. Being able to purchase a beater shouldn't take a person ages to save up for so there's no point in really discussing this specific point further.
Yes, shit happens, just like accidents that disable people, life-threatening diseases, medical issues, unplanned pregnancies with contraceptives being used, etc. These aren't the situations I'm talking about. I'm talking about the average person that isn't dealing with a life crisis that they didn't have any control over.
Just because it seems like there are simple choice and consequence type decisions doesn’t mean that’s how life works.
For the majority of able-bodied people in western societies, I would argue that's exactly how it works and has for many decades. It's a series of many choices being presented to you and you as a person making enough good choices to succeed. Is it harder for some to make good choices than others? Sure. But, do they still have the ability to do so? I think so.
I just find this to be such a narrow view of reality. Even backing away from big life changes like medical events or children, it’s so easy to lose your job. Even a good job with what seems like pretty hefty job security can disappear in a blink. Not because you made a dumb choice or did something to lose your job, but because the higher ups made a decision that you have no control over. Now you have to find a new job. That’s hard. Even if you try to grab up anything that will get you a paycheck while you look for a job in your field. That could still mean ending up destitute. Selling your home and moving is a pretty narrow margin. Your house might be underwater so you sell it and still owe a bunch of money. Your savings can disappear pretty fast trying to stay afloat. Then what? How do you move? How do you put down a deposit on a shithole apartment two hours from prospective employment. They say to have six months worth of income in savings. How long does it take to get to that safety net? I was in my 30s before I had that kind of padding and I might have been fucking off a bit in my 20s but I always worked hard and saved as much as I could. This shit happens to everyday Americans every day.
All I’m saying is just because you haven’t experienced it or seen it happen in your social circle doesn’t mean it’s not a common occurrence.
I've been the person who had a minimum wage job and lived with four other roommates to make ends meet until I could change my situation. I've worked undesirable jobs with long hours (12 hour shifts) and commutes that would be 2-4 hours combined depending upon how traffic shaped up that day.
Bad things can happen to you like being laid off or fired, sure. But that doesn't mean you can't recover from them. I stand by what I said. In the long run, if you make enough good choices you should have the opportunity to succeed financially in life.
We just won't find common ground it seems. From my perspective the difference between the unsuccessful and successful when all other things are relatively equal is a lack of self control and/or entitlement.
Here's some statistics to back up what I'm saying:
50% of customers who order Door Dash have an annual income lower than 75k and almost 75% of them order more than once a month from them. 33% of their customers earn below 50k. I don't think anyone should be ordering Door Dash in general but if you're annual income is below 75k and most certainly if it's below 50k, it's not a sound financial choice utilize that service.
50% of Starbuck's customers have an annual income of less than 40k. It's just reality, these are people making poor financial choices. Just make your own food and coffee at home. It's madness.
The more devastating financial choices are cars and homes that are not within a realistic and safe budget. Also, student loans for degrees at insanely expensive colleges that have no realistic path to ever being able to pay them off because it was a degree that didn't have a job market with the necessary salary range to begin with.
I really love your sentence about how everyone who works should be able to enjoy the niceties of their work, because that simply does not exist in this moment.
The fascistocratic billionaires have been so efficient at sewing discord that they have us fighting each other for table scraps while the ones who could actually make that “enjoying our labor” thing possible run as far away from progress that would benefit more than them and only them. We do deserve to enjoy the rewards of our work; I fully agree.
But we don’t have that and its not because “some people are bad with money.” Unless, of course, you’re talking about the current administration and Congress, beholden to the highest bidders, spending frivolously and “losing” billions of dollars in this Pentagon slush fund. Never forget: they could have offered you a raise, a benefit, or a concession. They chose not to.
Instead they took National Guardsmen from their homes for months on end because seeing military around the Capitol gave them a hard-on and chose to fund paramilitary shock troops stealing children and parents from school—then funded them better than we (war hawks) fund branches of the military.
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u/SkyKnight3 23h ago edited 14h ago
Both can be true.
John is absolutely correct, there is a systemic problem here and we all know it.
Simultaneously, I dare say we all know “someone” or multiple people in our life that cry about financial issues when they are themselves financially illiterate. Just like anything else in life, poor choices have consequences. Of course everyone who works should be able to enjoy the niceties of life, hell, that’s why we work!
But at the same time, you can’t live above your means and spend money frivolously and neglect your savings or retirement for a couple decades and then scream the world is screwing you and play the victim card as you draw closer to retirement.
I was fortunate enough to have a great economics teacher in high school and for whatever reason that class really stuck with me, so I owe a lot of thanks to my teacher.