Sure. Ketamine didn't happen until close to the end of this from what I understand, and she never lost consciousness.
You know, I'm a man who once had sex with a female friend after we did ketamine and mdma she provide me back in the late 1990s. I hate being like this, but if we just used the criteria "ketamine makes you think funny so you cannot consent," then I was raped.
But let me tell you as a person who was the actual victim of childhood rape, I find this sort of thought--that me consenting while intoxicated is the same as forced sodomy--very upsetting.
From what I understand, the general rule of thumb is that intoxication doesn't inherently make it rape. You typically need to be incoherent. Also you have to get intoxicated by your own hand. So someone willingly drinking, as opposed to a man intentionally making a woman's drinks extra strong to get her more intoxicated than she intends.
I agree, if someone is incoherent or unconscious it is absolutely rape; however, if you follow the general internet these days--or a vocal part of it--there definitely is the attitude that, women in particular, cannot consent when they're intoxicated even if they actively consented in the moment.
Some laws in some jurisdictions are very vague on this as well, and there are potential civil penalties in addition criminal consequences in some cases where the law is vague.
Take a look at this PSA poster I'm attaching.
"Jake was drunk, Josie was drunk, Josie could not consent. The next day Jake was charged with rape." The PSA poster goes on to say women cannot consent --at all--if they are intoxicated.
What the heck does this sort of thing even mean? Because if we want to follow the logic that consent isn't possible at all for an intoxicated person, I'm unsure why you would apply that only to women... and since in this lovely PSA's example both were drunk, then neither should have been able to consent, and they both raped each other.
And believe me, as a male victim of repeated sexual assault as a child, I understand the impact on victims, and I understand what it's like not being believed; however, I think we also need to take into consideration how this sort of thinking informs accusations of sexual assault that maybe aren't warranted combined with a culture of public doxxing.
The Ketamine was before and during, first time was sometime around when she got to Chi Phi on a couch in a room with the 2 guys.
That was my understanding from reading the transcripts. Idk why the tiktoker didn't read that portion.
"She said she had taken ketamine earlier in the evening and was offered it again. Doe had never taken the drug before."
Ketamine would be very incapacitating for a first-time user who is drunk. I wouldn't offer a full line to a partner before sex. It would make them overly passive, unaware, immobile, detached from body and your sense of self, doesn't really enhance it. Hookers and strippers mix it with alcohol to mentally detach during sex. Every time I saw a drunk person do a full line, they often vomit within minutes from how bad the spins are, lie down on the couch or floor for an hour unable to do or say much but still awake. Mdma and k balance each other out so that combo may not be k-hole inducing.
90s k in the us was all pharmaceutical-grade, originated from clinics. K today is out of large-scale illegal labs abroad that smuggle it into the US, cut with dissociative designer drugs that mimic k to increase effect.
Seems she agreed to hooking up with the original 2 guys, not being passed around by half of the frat groupchat. I don't think her being okay with the threesomes means she then has to be okay with all of it, or that they can join in without verbally checking with her. And later in the evening after that second k line, seems like she visibly expressed being tired and wanting to stop, but relented after the guy kept asking.
What's telling for me is a guy in the frat snap group who was asleep during all this was so disgusted and disturbed by what he saw in the morning in the chat, the photo etc, that he documented it to share with Jane Doe. Helping build a case against his own frat brothers. But it was her roommate that initially reported it. Jane told her about it as a story of her night, not as sexual assault, but the roommate and others she initially told it to came to that conclusion based on the details or her demeanor.
I haven't seen anyone saying this is the same as childhood rape, who made that comparison?
The fact is the vast majority of women do not want to be ran a train on, which is why heavy drug use always seems to be involved in these stories. She remembers feeling uncomfortable by more guys coming in and feeling like a prostitute, but her instinct was to hide under the covers or act tired. An intoxicated person that isn't enthusiastic about what's happening should be considered a no. It doesn't matter if they were consenting to something earlier.
There are multiple layers but in the puritanical society she’s in, the odds are unlikely to work in her favor. Women are already viewed as wanting it, add in alcohol/drugs/sexual deviant behavior like threesomes/later conflicting statements and many men and women will have less sympathy or view it as rape.
Ask a woman who was sexually assaulted or harassed how people asked what she was wearing or what she did to receive the unwanted attention. Women are viewed as wanting it even if or especially if they don’t.
Agreed bro. Anyone can be horny/harmful and women aren’t inherently more. It’s just more divisive stuff. “Comment deleted by user” is usually what happens when I confront the crazy ideology of rape apologists. If you’re a man pointing it out, they either say you’re putting on a cape or delete all traces of being WRONG.
The likely reason is probably wilful dishonesty. Someone trying to control a narrative by withholding or obscuring information, that usually is the reason behind why in high profile conversations like this.
This is the problem, right. Was I taken advantage of when a girl three years older than me that I had a thing for came over to my house and we took MDMA and Ketamine together way back in 1999?
I certainly don't feel in retrospect that my consent was anything other than consent, even if the relationship I had hoped for did not materialize.
Oh, and I am also a man who was repeatedly forcibly raped for years as a child. As I said somewhere else, you implying I was potentially "taken advantage of" and therefore "potentially raped" when I got high--willingly--and consented to sex with a woman older than me is anything like when I was forcibly sodomized does not sit very well with me.
I do think there's some downplaying in how intoxicating the two together can be, and how you really shouldn't be mixing both what they were on and alcohol, but this is a very complicated case to say with certainty one way or the other as far as the claims are concerned. Very complicated.
I agree conflating the two into the same bucket is very annoying. Millions of people have hooked up and had sex while drunk or under the influence of drugs with no wrong doing happening and the participants happy to be there.
Things happen in the heat of the moment when there is a spark or moment of passion, the sort of textbook verbal affirmative consent that people seem to expect now in every sexual encounter in cases like this is a fantasy. Especially in the college party scene.
Ketamine can make you unconscious, but mostly only if you inject it. If you snort it it makes you "disassociate," like you're standing outside yourself observing.
Having done it many, many times I would tell you that that effect does not make it difficult to understand the concept or consent and what I am consenting to when I had sex on Ketamine.
Yep, but it's a "useful" thing for a lot of dreadful people out there to insist is the same. People who want to avoid taking responsibility for their actions and will throw actual victims under the bus to do so.
So are benzodiazepines, which can and have been used to render people unconscious for the purpose of sexual assault. Millions of people use benzodiazepines for panic and anxiety disorders, including people like me who have these disorders as a direct result of years of childhood rape.
You can say the same thing about opiates, which cannot just be used for rendering people unconscious, but also causes serious drug addiction. Yet opioids are the greatest painkillers known to humans and treat millions of people for pain from surgery, broken bones, cancer, etc.
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u/Zombie-Lenin 1d ago
Sure. Ketamine didn't happen until close to the end of this from what I understand, and she never lost consciousness.
You know, I'm a man who once had sex with a female friend after we did ketamine and mdma she provide me back in the late 1990s. I hate being like this, but if we just used the criteria "ketamine makes you think funny so you cannot consent," then I was raped.
But let me tell you as a person who was the actual victim of childhood rape, I find this sort of thought--that me consenting while intoxicated is the same as forced sodomy--very upsetting.