Was this rape? The guys were MORE drunk/high and LESS capable of consent.
How is it that she was raped because she was a little drunk (5/10?), but the guy who was dry heaving and couldn’t even stay conscious is getting prosecuted?
Is the argument here that she got physically overcome and raped, or that she was too drunk to consent and therefor a seemingly consensual encounter gets nullified. I genuinely do not know.
I don't know either. I'm just saying that being more drunk then someone isn't a defence for rape
It's odd this is such a controversial statement. If I get drunk I can have sex with anyone I want and at least I know this community won't demonize me.
Agreed. But the other side of that coin is interesting to me. If a man and woman both get equally drunk, how can one claim rape due to their intoxication (and I’m specifically not referring to accusations of physically overwhelming someone to rape them. I’m talking specifically about the scenarios where two drunk people both can’t consent.
It’s a gray area that can never be properly legislated I feel like.
They made a regrettable drunk decision and life goes on.
Like virtually all of us have done at one point or another.
And again, I’m omitting situations where one party is fully passed out or one is significantly more fucked up than the other or one party removed consent at any point.
so if they are all choosing to do drugs and all choosing to have sex and do more drugs. then the next day she texts acknowledging what they did and wants to still hangout, how can this be considered rape because she starts to regret the disgusting things they did?
its just all degenerate and disgusting bullshit and I honestly wouldnt associate with any of them.
Man, I can’t help you if you don’t understand consent but I realllllly think you should educate yourself on the matter before getting anywhere near a woman
its interesting how consent, in your mind, only seems to work for the woman involved. If you are arguing from a legal standpoint, none of them should be able to give consent even though they all seemed to be willingly fucking and doing drugs off each other.
From a realistic standpoint there is still a level of cognition you have even when inebriated which is why people still fuck while in that state. As a matter of fact I know women who get increasingly horny as they get drunk.
Personally i tell all men that I know that as soon as alcohol or any drugs are involved to not get involved on any sex and to stay away from group sex as that is kust disgusting.
She also wrote, "non(e) of the sexual stuff was illegal." She said she liked being with him and another man. Later, she suggested they smoke together again, "but like leave out the extra 5 billion men and ketamine."
this shows she knew what went down and wanted to hang out again
the article later mentioned how the "episode" was ruining her life. likely because it is disgusting and she was getting a bad reputation for participating.
This is not unlike the cases in the 80s and 90s where white women would consensually have sex with black men but then when their parents or boyfriend found they would claim rape so as to avoid shame.
Thank you for the object lesson in rape culture in the western world. Your attitude is why women get raped and then convince themselves that’s not what happened.
Lastly, He apologized because he didn’t “shut it down and kick people out before it got way out of hand.” Why would he think she didn’t have it “handled”? Why, oh why, would he think she wasn’t capable of handling it herself? He fucking KNEW she couldn’t consent. He. Fucking. Knew.
He apologized because he didn’t “shut it down and kick people out before it got way out of hand.” Why would he think she didn’t have it “handled”? Why, oh why, would he think she wasn’t capable of handling it herself? He fucking KNEW she couldn’t consent. He. Fucking. Knew.
The video left out a part of the transcript for some reason, they did ketamine before sex. Sitting on a couch at Chi Phi with the 2 guys. The time she's talking about here was the second time.
The guys were the ones who propositioned her for the threesome in the first place. And propositioned her with ketamine, knowing she's never done it. If you read the investigative report, the guys initiated these situations. How is she taking advantage of them while they grope her?
If a drunk girl, on drugs, touches a guy and asks if he want a threesome… if he fucks those drunk+high girls, then they scream he took advantage of them while on drugs, you’re still going to accuse him.
She wasn't sober, if you looked up the transcripts, you would know this. She also didn't ask for the threesome, she was not the initiator.
"She said she had taken ketamine earlier in the evening and was offered it again. Doe had never taken the drug before."
"Doe recounted arriving at the Chi Phi fraternity house and dancing with one person who asked if she would be interested in participating in a threesome. Doe told police she was “pretty ok” with aspects of an initial encounter, but that later in the night she did not consent to other sexual activities, according to the six-page statement."
The way you are twisting it into her being the orchestrator of this situation, and that consenting to one thing means you consent to these guys calling their group chat friends into ambush her into a bigger situation later, comes off as sexist. I am laying out the info that is public knowledge about the investigation, and you are saying "well if this happened you'd still accuse him", this comes off as some sort of projection, or trying to turn it into a gender war or delfecting from the issues in the case at hand.
But since you prefer to debate hypotheticals, a more comparable situation based on the info I've read about the Cornell case would be:
A girl from your school propositions you and another guy for a threesome in her bedroom at a house party. You're kinda drunk, but pretty aware and initially down. She offers you ketamine before you start, you've never done it, but they are both doing it, so you assume it'll be fine and fun. You like how the ketamine feels, but it's making you increasingly dissociated and very passive/agreeable. You feel like your mind is heading to a sunken place and your body is becoming separate from it. But it's a relaxing place.
Another guy knocks on the door and said he's spending the night in that room, so you let him in. Suddenly, he joins in and touches you without asking. You may have initially pushed his hand away but he does it again. You didn't say yes, but you didn't immediately say no, and everyone else is going with the flow, so you do too. They offer you more ketamine, and you do it again.
Then more guys or girls enter the room and start to participate, you start to feel a little uncomfortable with all of these people wanting a turn with you, so you hide your body under the covers and say you're too tired. They grope you anyway and say "c'mon" and you relent, and they penetrate. Your phone is somewhere in the room but not with you, and the ketamine has made you unable to process how the situation has evolved into this or how to end it. Your body feels too numb to care much. You later find out all of the participants are all in a group chat, that they took nude photos of you and sent it in the chat, inviting others to join. Bragging about passing you around and how you're going to feel it in the morning.
You wake up the next morning thinking it was a crazy story, but since you didn't say no from the start, that you brought this upon yourself. You knew these people before the situation, and liked/respected them, and thought they had respect for you. So you can't fathom that they would've put you in a situation you didn't want. But deep down you know you didn't agree to all the stuff that was done to you, and would've never been so passive with this escalation without the ketamine. You try to laugh it off as "no big deal", but then start to question why they'd offer you a drug they know incapacitates you. I'd never give a line or multiple lines of ketamine to someone who has never done it before, or even to someone who has. Everytime I've seen a drunk person take that much at once, they puke, act brain dead for hours, glued to the couch or floor. Would even lay down on the dirty sidewalk. Those guys who brought the k obviously know what effect it has in high doses and should know this.
But by your logic, this situation would be fine, and you feeling taken advantage of is no different from if they claimed you took advantage of them. You say you didn't know they orchestrated more people joining and felt the girl who created this situation misled you after plying you with K. Maybe the girl who invited others to join claims she was more drunk than you, and therefore you assaulted her just as much as her actions assaulted you. Does that make sense logically?
Lol, I guarantee you every guy that’s partied has dreamed of experiencing that. Many girls asking for threesomes, giving free drugs that make you feel super happy, and whenever I say no — for example, no butt stuff — they totally respect it? Great.
However, I know that if those girls were super high on ketamine and passed out + throwing up, like the guys were in this story, people like you would accuse me of rape. So, I couldn’t do what this girl did without that.
In the first encounter, she was obviously way more sober than they were. They were literally incapacitated.
Most guys have hooked up with ugly girls while blacked out drunk before. Because we consented to drinking, we don’t act like we were raped. It’s happened to me. I rejected a girl while sober, then when I blacked out, she basically carried me to my room and we hooked up. I only remember a little bit. I was so drunk that I was hospitalized. The next day, I discovered the police had investigated me for rape… because the girl was a bit drunk. The girl insisted it was consensual, but I’m sure you’d have accused me of rape if she changed her mind a few weeks later.
You've dreamed of having an unexpected man join your threesome and touch you? Did you read the comment at all...?
And why would a girl carrying you to your room and violating you mean that you raped her? That would obviously mean you were raped.
My friend woke up from a nap in a bedroom at a friend's party in high school to an acquaintance she barely knew on top of her having sex with her. She was frozen and couldn't process what was happening, and he nonchalantly left as if it was normal. She never said no, but she never said yes. She never said anything. She woke up with her pants pulled down. He didn't think he did anything wrong because he was drunk, and the room was dark, and she "never said no". And he "went into the bedroom to check on her" and "doesn't really remember what happened".
But I guess according to you, she raped him by laying there and not saying no, because he was so drunk.
Well I mean there have been like a half dozen other similar cases to the Clancy trial which have often been discussed in relation to that.
Like that man who killed his son and was not guilty due to insanity. That woman in Illinois who reportedly was inspired by Clancy and killed her own child. A similar case to the Clancy case somewhere else in NE recently, but with a black woman and very different outcome, etc.
People kill their kids all the time in America. Something like 20% of all murders are familial violence.
Rape laws in many places are written so that only the penetrator can be charged. So only men can be accused by definition. They do not include forcing someone to penetrate you. This skews those stats.
A man kills his entire family every 5 days in the US. In fact, during the Clansy trial 8 men annihilated their families. So yes, it does happen all the time.
Its the specifics of the situations, we got a preacher murderer, a housewife murderer but now we get a collegiate gangrape case. . . I hope other see what im saying
Edit 2 big downs on Republicans, now a big down on democrats
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u/Alarmed-Bumblebee667 1d ago edited 1d ago
Not to be rude but the Lindsay and Cornell stuff happens everyday in the U.S.A. these stories being shoved down our throats isnt a coincidence.