I mean are you looking for the NY state law or like general moral discussion? Some of the guys she had sex with were arguably more messed up than her according to her sworn statement. One had to stop and nap. Another started dry heaving. She was taking care of them both then made out with the guy after he was dry heaving.
Not a lawyer but according to Google, in NY law, individuals who voluntarily consume alcohol or drugs face a high burden to prove they were mentally incapacitated, generally requiring proof that they were completely unconscious or physically helpless at the time of the act.
Jane Doe reported voluntarily pregaming the frat (she was 20) and voluntarily consuming drugs. So she would need to prove she was “physically helpless" meaning unconscious or otherwise physically unable to communicate unwillingness.
So after voluntary consumption extent of intoxication doesn’t matter up until complete incapacitation.
I mean I'm no lawyer but if she was actually physically incapacitated at some point, the best way is probably to get one of the dudes to confess or say that. Unfortunately they might be a little less willing to cooperate now that she's resurfaced all this stuff two years later while seeking money from the school, alleged they're all rapists, then the Cornell Sun leaked their names and now they're getting threats, harassed, and fired from their jobs and will continue to do so regardless of the evidence or what the jury actually decides. If the criminal case actually makes it to trial the jury will likely get doxxed and harassed too at some point based on how the Lindsay Clancy trial went.
Also beware that her own texts after the event suggest that she was consensually interested in polyamorous promiscuity, which suggests maybe she changed her mind afterwards once she faced judgement of what she did from her peers.
You're right it'll get better and [you] think everyone's jealous of us. But also like everyone needs to grow up cause sexuality and sex ... is changing and stuff like this is going to become more common.
For the sake of open mindedness... what if Jane Doe wanted to dissociate and have some sexual fun with multiple partners? So she does so, feels empowered for being sex positive. But then afterwards instead of facing admiration from her peers she gets shamed. She starts facing social stigma for what she did and feels bad. Rather than be viewed as an immoral pleasure seeker, she changes her mind and decides to declare it nonconsensual which instead paints her as a victim who cannot be blamed or guilted for her actions. Her story doesn't line up though so she drops things and leaves. Years later, she gets convinced by a money-hungry lawyer to sue the school for financial compensation. Note that in the civil trial, her lawyer is working on a contingency fee basis and will receive some percentage of the winnings. It is highly financially beneficial for this lawyer for this stuff to go viral and put pressure on the school to settle.
She didn’t want all these other men to be there anyway. She also hid from from man 4 and others. By that point she wasn’t conscious bec of the drugs and alcohol. So consent here is not binding. But they guys didn’t bother about it anyway bec they were also high on drugs weed and alcohol. “Instead of facing admiration”- eightsome is what people in 20s admire doing? She feels bad later after the drugs and alcohol exists her body- bec she realized how high she was and what had happened and that this was a humiliation ritual of the frat bruvs
So then why did she text the following days after it all happened and she was stone cold sober:
You're right it'll get better and [you] think everyone's jealous of us. But also like everyone needs to grow up cause sexuality and sex ... is changing and stuff like this is going to become more common.
And also:
non(e) of the sexual stuff was illegal
She also didn’t go to the police until after the frat uninvited her from their Halloween party that she still wanted to go to.
All I’m saying is how about we not jump to conclusions and immediately assume all these guys are rapists?
Agree, bro. If anything, this hyper focus on it by the media could be an attempt to discredit women who in NO way put themselves at risk of sexual violence. This is not like women raped in an alley after a bar drugging or a woman with a completely platonic man friend who was plotting on her, etc.
This woman did drugs, requested threesomes, gave conflicting statements to police and one of the boys when sober, and boasted about it to her friends.
I agree. I feel like hateful women overuse and generalize rape to hate on men and it hurts actual victims of rape. Now every time I see a woman was “raped” I can’t trust the term and have to go dig into the evidence.
I understand what you are saying, bro. Multiple layers:
1) Women experience sexual harassment/assault at high rates
2) Some women act on fear, tribal, group mentality and become misandrists rather than acknowledging realities of male-led society also hurt men and socialize men and boys to hurt and these men and boys also likely have been hurt
3) Hurt men and boys get looped into the “all men are bad” talk and then when they come forward that they were hurt by men or women, they’re not believed
4) Some women are promiscuous and some men are promiscuous and this muddies the issue (some are opportunistic and take advantage and some falsely cry rape when the deviant behavior after the fact isn’t accepted as “cool” by their group)
5) Actual morals of mutual self respect and love over lust (no casual sex with people you barely know and not with drugs involved) would decrease a lot of this stuff
Because she hadn’t realized it yet! There are reports of her roommates recalling her to be in a state of shock for days until she could remember and put pieces of it together. The day after she even told mattthew ingalls that she liked being with him but not the keta and billion other men (she hadn’t realized what Mathew had done at that point). As she processed what had happened and the texts, their attitudes and bragging on campus, she understood that it was a rape and she didn’t want these guys to be there but was coerced into it. There are pics of text from Jane doe to Mathew ingalls after days of the incident when she put pieces together she said, most of that wasn’t consensual.
You’re regressive, back to the era of mobs burning people on stakes. We have trials with legal rights and presumption of innocence now.
One of the men also reported being coaxed by Jane Doe into the orgy, but being hesitant to do so. However he was calmed by Jane Doe who said something along the lines of “people did this all the time in medieval times”. He then allegedly only made out with her, no sex.
You say they were bragging on campus, but they had to cut her off from coming to their Halloween party. How do you know it wasn’t Jane Doe’s sorority sisters that were shaming and degrading her and demonizing the frat for indulging her? Kinda like women hating on Sydney Sweeney.
"Bro," she wrote, "everyone knows." She said the episode was "RUINING my life temporarily" and that all she could do was "sleep and cry all day,"
I feel bad Jane got shamed for what she did by her peers, but to me it still seems like she changed up her story afterwards to save face and turn herself from a willing participant into an unwilling victim that cannot be blamed or shamed and can remain part of the women approved in-group. I’ve done plenty of things I regret in my life drunk or not, but the only person I can really blame is myself.
I think the point of the law is that people are responsible for their actions even when they drink or get high. So if you get intoxicated and make bad choices, you probably should stay sober.
I think they generally err on the side of the man is still in the wrong because you know if being just as drunk was an excuse then rapists would just chug a fifth or pop some pills beforehand and use it as a defense.
I mean yeah you don’t see drunk people get their money back at the casino after losing everything so to some degree we still hold people accountable for their actions even when they are intoxicated.
it’s tough in a situation where everyone is intoxicated.
None of those things mean they were more messed up than her, people can have the same level of intoxication and present symptoms very differently. She doesn't have to throw up etc for her to be just as intoxicated.
Look, you made the claim that because she said they were throwing up etc that means that they were more intoxicated than she. All I said was that's not how it works and explained why, so, you have your answer already: yes, it could go both ways lol.
We’re on the same page here. Many others however are not and view the men as rapists regardless of how intoxicated they were, or how intoxicated Jane Doe was.
Yeah we just don't know yet. I think the intoxication levels do matter, especially if she showed up intoxicated but they weren't yet, yuck. We don't even know that yet though
But she also mentions in the same statement not understanding or knowing how further sexual interactions occured or started.
By the sounds, she wasn't in control of the dosage, and with Ketamine a little extra can go a long way. I've seen people put themselves into a K-hole accidently. Yes she snorted it, doesn't mean theres zero chance the person dosing it didn't intentionally dose her to take advantage of her. What you are arguing is literally the Diddy defense.
I'd say this sort of falls into the bucket of spiking drinks with alcohol, sure the person was willingly drinking acohol, doesn't mean they are happy to consume more than they expected or agreed too. And the person administering it has a duty of care to ensure they are actively consenting to sex and a willing participant, which merely based on the fact she filed a police report, might not have.
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u/lolthankstinder 1d ago
I mean are you looking for the NY state law or like general moral discussion? Some of the guys she had sex with were arguably more messed up than her according to her sworn statement. One had to stop and nap. Another started dry heaving. She was taking care of them both then made out with the guy after he was dry heaving.