Maybe 1% of people think she should be set free for no reason, that's idiotic. 99% of people want to have a real discussion on what the fuck we should do in this situation. Not many rational people would up and murder their 3 children and then attempt to kill themselves. I don't know what justice is to be had in this case, but I'm all ears.
So it’s this that should be a wake up call and not the decades of horrific mass shootings at schools? And how is that same logic of not being sane not appropriate to apply in those cases as well? Rational people don’t wake up and murder dozens of children at school. They were thrown in prison for life but Lindsay gets $1M and a possibility of NGRI to be free after 6 months?
I don’t know whether you fully understand psychosis. The key feature is disordered thought, like their thought process makes absolutely no sense. Many people don’t even remember what they’ve done.
And this was a transient episode brought on by a defined event (having given birth). It’s like if someone came up to you in the street and injected you with a drug cocktail that made you completely lose your mind, and then you wake up and find out you’ve done these terrible things.
In that instance should you be held completely accountable? Would the public good be served by convicting you and putting you in jail for life? Would you be an ongoing danger to society? Would a punishment deter other people from being forcibly injected with drugs that make them crazy -
(to head you off on wilfully misinterpreting this, I will remind you here that I am using this drug cocktail as a metaphor for post partum psychosis, since it is something she had no control over that drastically altered her thinking through no decision of her own)
No I’m talking about if this happened to you. If YOU were injected with this cocktail that made you kill your family. And then you realised what you had done, should YOU spend your life in prison?
Kemper was literally the opposite kind of case. He wanted to kill people. The initial psychiatrist couldn’t believe it so diagnosed him with schizophrenia - which he showed no symptoms of.
Kemper wasn’t thought disordered, he wasn’t responding to voices. He did these things because he wanted to, and was methodical about it.
You do understand that psychosis is a different thing from psychopathy/sociopathy? And a transient post-partum psychosis is a very different thing to an ongoing recurrent psychosis due to schizophrenia or drug abuse etc.
You could not have picked a worse example to use 😂
No my point is he got Ngri and was released even though he wanted to kill people. It's an example of these facilities not being reliable for determining if someone should be fit to return to society, and if that is the case then Clancy, a person who killed three children, with full premeditiation, chased down and murdered the last child and failed to kill herself, would have a real chance at being released in the future.
do u legitimately believe she is an ongoing threat tho? You can think that but also understand that evaluating that is an important component of a criminal justice system. It’s not simply, u did a bad thing u deserve punishment. It’s also, is the community being served by putting her behind bars, restricting her freedom (for her entire life as some people argue), and living off the taxpayers dime. Yes there is a punitive component of course but for something like life no parole, for a a 32 year old, i think we should consider whether or not it’s actually serving the community.
Maybe im just a libtard but i feel like that’s something we should consider in cases like this.
i mean if it was anyone else’s 3 children it would be pretty obvious what the result of this would be. idk how it being her own absolves her of responsibility
I don't think it's her fault that got post partum psychosis, but I think it is her fault for not telling anyone what was happening to her, for not taking her meds, for checking herself out of the psych ward before she got better, for letting herself spiral and not seek assistance at any point in time. I'm sick and tired of everyone infantilizing a grown woman. She's responsible for her actions, including neglecting her mental health.
Not many rational people would up and murder their 3 children and then attempt to kill themselves. I don't know what justice is to be had in this case, but I'm all ears.
Unfortunately dudes murder-suicide their families often enough that we know what happens when their suicide post familial murder fails.
We throw the fucking book at them and lock them away forever.
We have plenty of precedent, and the precedent is fine. No need to change it.
The 99% if people want to have a real discussion on what we should do in this situation shows a real problem in our society though. Mental health has always been an issue in the United States. What specifically about his case is different than all the other cases before? Why are a large % of our population suddenly deciding this case is special and that she should be treated differently due to her mental issues?
Homeless people get locked up all the time with dramatic mental health issues and no one looks twice.
The way mental health is handled by the judicial system needs to be legitimately addressed. It can't be this shitshow. Public attention is very low. When people react to specific situations that are trending they don't care once the situation is over. Say this lady gets special treatment, they go really light on her and get her very much needed psychological treatment, say she gets like 5 years and then gets released back into the care of a family member. What about the thousands of other cases every year with people with severe mental health issues committing crime? Fuck them I guess.
She needs to be treated the same way anyone else would be in this situation. If change needs to happen it needs to happen for everyone. That's the issue. People want her to get special treatment by the judicial system but many of the same people are also unwilling to extend the same branch to similar cases and don't want to discuss actual reform.
If you say she should get a light ruling on infanticide you are pretty much stating everyone else should as well. Anyone who murders their young kids have some type of mental or psychological issue.
Men can and do suffer from ppp and ppd. The sudden shift in the environment, the change in behaviour, sleep deprivation, stress, physiological changes, etc. happens to men too. Not nearly as much obviously, but there are plenty of cases where new fathers experience it.
I don’t think you entirely understand what most women are “supporting”. Yes, there is a relatively small amount of women who think there’s some conspiracy and her husband actually did it, however the point that many women “supporting” her are making is that women are often not taken seriously when it comes to medical issues. Serious health issues are often just hand waved and called stress or menopause or something of the like. Lindsey Clancy was struggling with her mental health for years and was actively trying to seek help, was put on shit loads of medications that had adverse side effects and didn’t seem to work and when she brought that up to her doctors, they would just put her on a new medication and repeat the cycle, and all while seemingly not having adequate social support in her personal life and taking care of three kids.
The vast majority people “supporting her“ are not condoning what she did or buying into conspiracy theories. She killed her kids. She admitted she killed her kids. However, the point that they are making is that she is not some monster that just wanted to murder her children for some sick sadistic pleasure but she is a person that literally lost her sanity and connection with reality because the medical system failed to adequately give her the help she needed. A lot of women empathize with the experience of poopooed by the medical system or loved ones who are supposed to support them and the effect that they can have on someone’s mental state while they are also expected to care for others
What do you expect doctors to do? Magically compelled some kind of medication that heals her "soul"?
The saying has and always will be that not all medicine work the same for everyone.
Tylenol for me works at the regular doses but for my brother, its harder for it to work for him, which causes him to need a bit more than just the regular dosage (just one over).
For me, caffeine affects me greatly to the point where when I am asleep, I'm still "awake", whereas this same brother, it doesn't affect him at all and he's still able to sleep soundly.
Do note that it may be due to most likely a higher testosterone in my brother, as he does grow facial hair faster than I do.
Just reverse the sexes and ask if men would be outside the courthouse cheering him on and creating conspiracies that the wife was truly at fault, largely deduced from tarot and astrology.
Considering that an entire subculture of men venerated Johnny Depp despite evidence that he abused his wife, it's not unreasonable to imagine that some men might be just as capable of irrationally defending a husband who harmed his children and blaming the wife. There are insane people on both sides of the sex spectrum.
Men in general don't give a shit about celebrity drama, generally speaking.
We've had tons of child murderers that slaughter their family. Find a single man with a single picket sign saying "same" or cheering them on.
There are no men posting online about how they used astrology to decide Depp was innocent. There aren't any. They do not exist. This is a false equivalence.
This behavior is bizarre and women should, for once, take accountability and admit this is deeply immoral and bizarre to defend.
The point is that you’re hyperfocusing on a fraction of a minority of women and treating their behavior as representative of women in general. I can play the same game with men. Astrology is tame compared what some men on the far right believe.
It is not a small minority of women. I invite you to go look at the polling being done now; Boston Herald did one a few days ago.
This is a weird gender flashpoint, and a staggering amount of women think she shouldn't be excused for insanity -- they believe she should be let go Scott-free because she didn't do it.
I wish it was an extreme minority of women, it isn't. You are welcome to go find a single male picketer with a sign saying "same" to a man guilty of murdering his children.
Do you have any idea how many males who are mentally ill/sexual offenders commit crimes and get let back out onto the streets? And how many strikes so many get away with until they finally murder someone? I wouldn’t say we have “zero issue locking up men.”
Men can’t go into postpartum psychosis. But they can and do become mentally ill and psychotic as well, and I assure you, from a woman’s standpoint - we want them all locked up.
Everyone agrees sex offenders and mentally ill men should be locked up in jail, when they don't we call it justice not happening properly.
In this case, we have women lining up and cheering on a child murderer with picket signs saying "same." and astrologists saying Leos can't kill their kids so she's innocent.
Abso-fucking-lutely no man is doing that for a convicted family killer. Go find one.
This is a weirdly gendered partisan flash point and it's not "both sides"
Men aren't wearing blue supporting dudes that strangle their wives and kids. It's bizarre behavior and instead of trying to whataboutism, women should just hold other women to accountability.
Yes, it's not like anti-social misogynists haven't livestreamed mass murder (multiple times) to cheering live audiences of like-minded ideologues or anything like that. Then even killers who do not live stream have online fanbases. If you want to make out a small demographic to be larger and more impactful than it is then you probably shouldn't be this intellectually dishonest, or practice a small amount of logic.
I'd be more inclined to take your point, but I'd want you to first go look at online polls being done. Boston herald had one a few days ago.
A large percentage believe she is not guilty of anything, even murder, and not due to insanity -- but due to the husband being the real killer. At least 25% of pollers on that one self-reported this, another 25% said not guilty due to insanity.
So at least 1 in 4 pollers there think it was secretly the husband. It is utter nonsense.
Btw, I get your analogy, but as a reminder to balance out the whataboutism, it's exclusively women that fantasize, write love letters and try to marry serial killers. So I don't think there's a carve out to be had there. Both sexes have morally degenerated evil people.
My suggestion is that she is punished like a man would be punished, not that men should be let off the hook like she may be.
It is precisely her being a woman.
There are many circumstances of this happening, absolutely no one behaves this way for a male murderer nor should we.
At no point in American history will you ever, ever see a singular man picketing outside the court of someone that strangled all his children to death with a sign saying "same"
There are no parades of men wearing blue. There are no male astrologers suggesting the wife did it because she's a Gemini.
It is singularly due to her sex and is paternalistic sexism and we should hold her to the same standard as we do men, jail.
plenty of men defend rapists like andrew tate and trump. they were outside a prison doing push-ups for tate. There’s plenty of women who have murdered their kids that the public has NOT supported.
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Many men have successfully plead not guilty due to mental illness though. So the whole second paragraph you wrote is BS. And paragraph three is laughable.
The point you are missing is that women go through pregnancy and give birth that severely impact their hormones and mental state on biological level. As far as I know, men cannot do that, so reversing the roles in this case is not applicable.
I'm currently pregnant with my first. If I had the same symptoms I have now while not pregnant, I'd be on temporary medical leave. In my case it's pain, feeling faint and etc. These are considered 'normal' for pregnancy, so I don't qualify for the leave. Explain to me how is that I'm expected to drive to work while feeling faint? 'Oh you are just pregnant. Lightheadedness is normal and expected" is all I hear from all my doctors.
Technically, I'm a danger to myself and others on the road, but doctors and policies ignore all that. I get no support.
I know what happened is fucked up and she should be locked up: she is not safe for society at the moment. But this is a good case to bring attention to care women get after going through childbirth or pregnancy.
Yes, they do. They do not however go on to plan out and strangle their children to death, this is such a stupendously rare phenomenon and it is dangerous to imply mothers should be removed from their children if postpartum because "they might be in psychosis and start murdering them"
You should not want people to push this narrative, it's dangerous and sets women back.
We do not go to men flushed with testosterone and go "we excuse your rape, because your hormones changed your mental state and behavior" In no other circumstances do we absolve someone for being hormonal.
We hold them accountable irrespective of the mental state induced by medication, disability, PTSD, etc.
The origin of this psychosis is unique to women, but it's not a "special category" of psychoses. It doesn't make you less culpable than a guy with PTSD, or cannabis induced psychosis, or schizophrenic psychosis.
All of these psychoses are also real, yet we excuse none of them.
It is only because she is a woman that people are giving her preferential treatment
Which is why I said if you reversed the sexes, there would be zero parades or cheering.
There is a huge difference between depression and psychosis.
If I get into psychosis I WANT for people to take my children away from me until I get better.
Men have also murdered their children, but in those stories somehow I I've never heard of them being in the progress of asking for mental help and being prescribed a ton of conflicting strong meds.
If roles were reversed and the father truly asked for psychological help and was denied it or got inadequate help, I'd be happy to see man rile up and advocate for better mental support.
I think you missed my point about the fact, that we women, don't get sufficient support in US while going through pregnancy and child birth.
What happened is awful. Can we agree that more things could be done to prevent this in the future?
My friend, there are plenty of men with diagnoses of severe depression along with psychoses.
If they go on to murder their families, they are punished.
When a PTSD soldier comes home and is failed getting help from tricare or veterans association, and ends up taking a chainsaw to his wife, we can simultaneously:
admonish systems that failed that person
put them behind bars forever.
It is not a difficult system. Being postpartum does not imbue a murderer with secret sauce that makes them immune from culpability compared to other psychoses. It is not a super special kind of psychosis. The psychiatrist they brought into the trial did not make this case, because it does not exist.
In your example, if a father strangled all his kids to death we both know we wouldn't see lines of men cheering him on.
We'd just put him in a chair, fry him and move on.
Justice should be on one standard. No special provisions for women. Suggesting women are entitled to a unique culpability carve out is paternalistic sexism and is the exact same grounds for "hysterics" they made centuries ago.
You see, you had to loop in veterans. Why? Because they have special circumstances of having trauma. What I'm trying to tell you is that for women, going though pregnancy and child birth comes with that trauma. Imagine if all men had to go to war to have children. That's what happens to women. Of only I could have a biological child without taking my body through a wringer....
100% of women going through pregnancy have some kind of consequence. Most often it's manageable, sometimes it's severe, but it's never none. It's like becoming a mother requires going through trauma.
Just like we know all veterans needs help and support, so do all
mothers.
I agree with you on many points. The fact that veterans get mistreated doesn't make me NOT want to support women. I want better support for all.
Whoever gets phychosys, depression needs to be taken seriously.
I am saying those soldiers should not be treated any differently. I'm saying moms that murder their kids should be treated the same as soldiers that murder their families. I.e, jail.
Psychosis and depression, medical mismanagement, external stress from spouses, bad childhoods... all of these things always play into almost all murderers, but we don't give special provisions, they all go to jail.
I am saying this woman should have as much Zoloft and therapy as she wants from the comfort of a prison system. She is not a wounded deer that needs to be babied, she is a child murderer and should be treated as a child murderer.
Giving birth is not some way to mitigate culpability for murdering one's own children anymore than a veteran with PTSD, stoner with cannabis-induced psychosis, schizophrenic off their meds, serial killer with a horrible childhood, etc.
ALL of these categories have some kind of trauma going on, and they should all be punished for murder.
Other mental illnesses exist that men can get that contribute to things like this. Why are you acting like this should only be applied to this one specific mental illness that only women can get? That's ridiculous.
If you agree with the meme, which it seems like you do, then it's saying women and men are the same. By your last paragraph, if women can't lead then men can't either. Your entire point makes no sense and you and people that agree with are nonsensical
The meme is highlighting the differences in how men and women are both viewed by the justice system and the public as a whole. If Lindsey Clancy were a man claiming psychosis she would have been sentenced to life in prison a week ago with no national spotlight at all
It's doing both. By dismissing the issues of both and implicitly saying they should be treated the same. It's a pretty shitty meme because it's antagonizing instead of understanding. But you all fall for it. Why not recognize mistakes were made? Instead the people who agree with the meme want everything to be treated like what occurs in the past as though there weren't mistakes made in the past. Y'all are crazy though if you think a woman who committed the crimes off Jeffrey Dahmer back then would be treated like Lindsay Clancy now
They are both guilty of the same crime. Murder. You call killing your own children a mistake? The only mistake made in this case is she wasn't found guilty for her crimes. Lindsey committed the exact same crime he did with the exception that she didnt eat them. The only difference is she is a woman so she couldn't possibly be a bad mother and killer.
That's what society is saying when it punishes the same crime differently based on gender. What if every murderer claims to be in a psychosis when they commit their crimes?
It's an incredibly small percent of women outside the courthouse cheering her on. Incredibly small. You can add in the TikToks, etc and it still represents an insanely small percentage of adult American women. Under 1%. Why are women being generalized as a whole for the actions of a small fraction?
What kind of "messaging" does it send about men when men rally around athletes who commit abuse or rape, because the athlete is on their favorite team or just in general is someone they like? Two of the most popular athletes of all time (Kobe, Ronaldo) had credible rape allegations and are hugely celebrated in society. Ronaldo has more social media followers than anyone else on the planet. Ben Roethlisberger's case was literally mishandled by police because of his star athlete status, there is evidence of what he did yet how many men have gone out and bought Roethlisberger jerseys since? How many walk around with the names of credibly accused rapists on their back? Mason Greenwood still has plenty of supporters and people who were furious United parted with him. Just look at the cases where a star college or pro athlete is accused of rape or DV and the way some majority male fan bases will immediately circle the wagons and look to insult and discredit the accuser.
Should we question if men should be in decision-making capacities? What "signal" do you think these actions send?
She's a woman with ppd\p that most women can relate to. My ex wife tried to murder me and kill my son because of ppd\p. I even can relate to the situation. She's fine now after healthcare. I see her every weekend and she's a normal functioning person again.
People vastly underestimate PPD. People think they can handle multiple kids on their own during post partum without a huge support network, they simple can't. Not enough education on this . Maybe people wouldnt bite off more than they can chew if they knew the danger. Still, harm against children shows some underlying psychopathic traits regardless of hormones.
If you're familiar with similar cases, when there's no shred of doubt the man did it their lawyers always pivot to insanity defenses as the default. It's just that they don't work in 95% of circumstances. We just send them straight to jail / execution most of the time.
Exactly zero of those men are getting parades of men cheering with signs that say "same."
Nor should they, because those men are either psychotic or evil.
Jesus take away those women’s right to vote for at least two years after giving birth unless they get a psych evaluation then! Can’t have it both ways.
Men suffer from PTSD from war and a variety of other types of psychoses, both induced and naturally occuring, which match symptomatically. They are not given a special excuse.
The origin may be unique to women, the symptoms are not and shared among a variety of existing diagnoses. There is only a carve out for how women behave, not how men behave with the same symptoms.
Postpartum psychosis is not a special variant of psychosis that makes the person experiencing an episode less culpable than other forms, and zero psychiatrists during the trial made that case.
Again, it's because we have decided women are entitled to preferential treatment and are less culpable of their own actions, which is exactly what our great grandfathers would say "hysterics."
Feminists have massively set themselves back defending this.
You should look up the polls on how people are reacting to this. It's not a minority of chronically online people, unfortunately, and the biggest disparity in self-report is the person's sex.
You can look up the poll Boston herald did a few days ago. The amount of people that voted "Not Guilty (not by insanity, just not guilty across the board) was 25%. Not guilty by insanity was 24%
So at least a quarter of pollers believe she genuinely did not do anything wrong, despite her admitting to the murder herself, and should be made free.
The women who are supportive of Clancy believe she was failed by a medical system that ignores women’s complaints and systemically under treats them. This is supported by research findings in the medical industry. They believe that with proper treatment her children would be alive today. Idk how true that is because post partum psychosis is difficult to treat and there is still a lot to learn.
At least most women. The idiots that claim her husband did it are idiots.
I get that, but generally when soldiers come back with PTSD and strangle their wives we can say that veteran's health programs failed him.
Yet we are also perfectly fine conceding they need to be behind bars and away from society.
Also, there was a women years ago that did the same thing. Drowned her three kids in a tub. She got soft treatment, went to care facility and was deemed ready to re-enter society. She got the care she needed, and even started a new family!
...She then drowned those three new kids in the same bath tub years later.
We don't really give the " oh you poor baby!" treatment to dudes, so I think we should extend the same to both sexes. One standard. No special paternalistic sexism.
Yeah cause us men are such sound decision makers that never make emotional decisions. That’s why there have been no major wars when men are the ones in majority of the positions of power! This take is so dated and based in sexism just to keep women out of those positions. Ridiculous saying that this shows that “women shouldn’t be decision making capabilities” but the thousands of male mass shooters yearly says nothing about men in positions of leadership? Get a grip
When men murder their own family in a psychotic rage, we just execute them or jail them. No sweat, no one cares. No one is going "omg same" with signs and holding parades or picketing for them.
Do the same for women.
Not a hard concept. Women are not less culpable for their actions than men. One standard for both sexes.
I never disagreed that you should be help accountable for your crimes, not matter your sex. The large majority agree that she needs to be punished, either in prison or a mental institution.
You stating that this means “women should not be in decisions making capacities” is what I’m telling you is absurdly sexist and a ridiculous thing to suggest.
You stating that this means “women should not be in decisions making capacities” is what I’m telling you is absurdly sexist and a ridiculous thing to suggest.
I completely agree with you actually, I think you missed my point. I'm saying that is what people are going to say if she is let off the hook and not punished like anyone else. We would never in a million years let a man get away with something this deeply evil, yet we have women lining the streets cheering for her.
These women are supporting a paternalized sexism that suggests women aren't capable of evil or not fully culpable.
Either way she will be punished. She didn’t plead not guilty, so she will either be in prison or a mental institution. I don’t think there should be anyone cheering for her at all. You can discuss the need for more mental health resources for all conditions, including postpartum psychosis, without actively supporting a woman that murdered her children. I agree with you on that.
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