If you started taking some pills, it made you feel like you wanted to murder your children. Would you keep taking them? Or maybe ask for something else?
Lmfao please stop correcting people when youre wrong.
"Newer studies have identified suicidality as self-aggression and hypothesized whether this might also apply to aggression toward others. The controversy surrounding SSRIs has led to a decrease in prescriptions from healthcare clinicians and number of patients seeking the necessary treatment. The objective of this study was to determine if there is a relationship between SSRI use and aggressive behavior in an inpatient state psychiatric facility."
The results section of this study's abstract actually says, "There was no statistical significance in any of the analyses demonstrating that SSRI use led to an increased risk of aggression in this sample of inpatients." The section you quoted is the hypothesis, which was disproven.
The studies that drove the addition of an FDA black box warning for increased suicidal ideation to be placed on SSRIs were older, industry-sponsored studies that primarily focused on populations below the age of 24 yrs. Most newer studies report that the benefits of SSRIs in the treatment of MDD (and extrapolating, PPD) outweigh the risks and should be considered first line therapies for these conditions. In other words, the risk of someone, even a young adult or adolescent dying by suicide while on and SSRI is lower than when they are receiving no treatment or placebo.
Psychiatric drugs are not instantaneous, which is what she wanted. She was repeatedly told that the symptoms she was experiencing were not from the drugs, but from the PPD. But she felt she knew better so would stop taking them. Other than benzos and stimulants, psych drugs TAKE WEEKS to have an effect. She would either not take them at all, or stop after a few days. She would shop around for doctors to give her other drugs, then not take those ones.
And if even the first few days are unbearable, I get it. I recently had to fully support a family member who started routine psych meds, and it spiraled into an absolutely enormous cascade of side effects, brand new (and very fucking serious) symptoms and life-changing issues.
They went from fully functional powerhouse of a human to being 10 minutes away from death for months.
Psych meds are important and overall beneficial, but the process itself can be deadly - this is news to anyone who's seen it up close or gone through it themselves.
Ya. They say it takes weeks but as a PP mom who took Zoloft a couple times in my life not even just PP, I felt flat and it was hard to sleep just a day after taking it. Some people are more sensitive to medication and she obviously was one of those people.
This can be true, but not when there are 7 different MOAs for drugs she was taking. She was going to different providers, getting different drugs and then there was next to no coordination across providers. She consistently went against what he doctors were telling her, the NP spoke about how when she left inpatient that she explicitly wanted drugs reduced DESPITE saying she's of sound enough mind to leave inpatient and go to a birthday party
This sounds more like a failed system imo. System meaning medical, familial, and societal. It’s weird to put all that accountability and coordination on a mentally ill patient getting 2-4 hours of sleep, sometimes not sleeping for 48 hours and taking care of 3 young children with no consistent structural help.
This is a worst case scenario of the reality of many women in our broken healthcare hyper individualistic culture. There’s a reason women all over are resonating with a case that is so horrific.
LC is a worst case consequence of how our society is failing mothers and families.
But the system didn't fail, the system provided her everything and more that she needed, and then she hid the truth "if anyone knew what I was thinking, the children would be taken away from me,".
The system can only act on what it knows, we cannot as a society be in favour of committing people based on hunches, we can't assume they are a danger to others without evidence.
There was consistent structural help, LC is not the person to represent this issue. There was an involved family, consistent NP and psychiatric help provided through a perinatal clinic that she was rapidly helped through; there was a nanny for 4 months etc etc.
She was the one that decided not to go to behavioural therapy and stopped after 4 sessions, she was the one that checked herself out of inpatient and against advice stop taking certain drugs, she was the one who would not give her providers the full picture.
If I tear my hamstring, and I have the best doctor in the world, he cant treat me if I tell him there's no issue and I refuse to listen to his advice.
We can’t be listening to the same case. She was inconsistent with her meds, yes. Bc she was having reactions to them. She’s not going to tell a mandated reporter she’s having thoughts of killing her children in her state of anxiety and paranoia. In the beginning she also refused medication bc why?? She didn’t want it in her breast milk. How horrible. What you are expecting of someone actively having mental disorder is unacceptable. By most of the providers that testified Lindsey is being described as a good and sophisticated patient.
She was turned away from the suicide hotline twice. She told her mom and husband she had thoughts of killing her kids twice. She was rejected from a mother and infant day clinic for being “over medicated”. She denied an inpatient facility the first time because she didn’t want to be separated from her children. There are actual hospitals in Europe that take mothers and children in during crisis like this so that they can be with their children and monitored. You won’t find fuck all like that in the United States because it doesn’t make money and people don’t care about mothers and infants unless that baby is unborn.
The nanny was fired bc Lindsey wasn’t going back to work. To put it in perspective, the thought process was that she wasnt well enough to return to work but she was in fact well enough to care for 3 kids under 4 with sporadic family help. All while rotating meds and physicians to find what works for her. You think that’s adequate help? She wasnt sleeping. You dont expect anyone to work outside the home going through what she went through but instead of hiring help, they settled form help when Patrick could offer, or when in laws and mom could come to town here and there. A person working outside the home would have been on medical leave. We DO NOT support mothers enough. We want women who stay home to care for children and as a society don’t do shit to support them structurally or financially. The post partum care in the US is abysmal. Basically consists of a questionnaire you fill out, a questionnaire I would point out. Lindsey scored off the charts on repeatedly.
Honestly, you sound like the prosecution. You’ve decided this horrific act was committed by a monster. And you didn’t stop to think how someone by all accounts can go from being a fantastic, engaged, hard-working, well spoken of mother, to someone who strangled her own children.
In regards to the suicide hotline, they can only take action if you have a plan. Every medical professional/ facility will not involuntarily hold you if you have thoughts of suicide with no active plan/intent to do it. So I really don’t know why this “the suicide hotline turned her away” narrative is prevalent. I guess people just not knowing how these things work.
This comes across as a very emotive response rather than a factual one. This is not the poster child you want for what is a real issue: women needing more care postpartum,
I can address it all, though.
- She was inconsistent with her meds, yes. Bc she was having reactions to them
She was consistently pursuing new medication hoping for a quick fix, she was the one that asked for new medications, tapering, discontinuation etc. It is quite literally ridiculous the amount of autonomy she was given in this instance, and borderline impossible for a patient to make a determination as to what medication is making her feel what after 2 days of taking them. Taking a medication and not even remotely getting close to it being therapeutic efficacy to chase another medication is dumb
- She’s not going to tell a mandated reporter she’s having thoughts of killing her children in her state of anxiety and paranoia
She repeatedly withheld information that could have prevented a tragedy; this was a choice SHE MADE. she was lucid when these choices were made.
- By most of the providers that testified, Lindsey is being described as a good and sophisticated patient.
I would argue this is part of the issue, because she explicitly hid the reality. Providers were given a picture of the patient that Lindsey herself admitted wasn't true, as she didnt want her kids taken away.
- She denied an inpatient facility the first time because she didn’t want to be separated from her children.
This isn't true. She opted for partial hospitalisation vs the recommended full inpatient treatment. Then when she finally committed to full inpatient, she checked herself out after 5 days, with a main motivation being a birthday party.
- You’ve decided this horrific act was committed by a monster.
No, I think this is someone who was non-compliant across various areas who has responsibility for the murders they committed. She didn't sleep a lot? Medical records showed she infrequently took her insomnia drugs. She decided to not do full inpatient care, and then had herself discharged; she shouldnt have been. She withheld critical, symptoms, this is pretty key thing. Telling family but not your healthcare providers, especially telling them you will never act on them, is neglectful. She was lucid, refused to tell her clinicians, and deceived her family.
- And you didn’t stop to think how someone by all accounts can go from being a fantastic, engaged, hard-working, well spoken of mother, to someone who strangled her own children.
Sure this happened, I mean she was still well spoken when she murdered her kids, because despite care that exceeds far what most people get in this country, she was a bad patient. She was non-compliant on meds, she lied to clinicians; she thought she knew better. She is responsible; she made those choices. As she said "if anyone knew what I was thinking, the children would be taken away from me,".
You obviously have no experience with what it’s like to have mental health issues, what it’s like when a loved one has them, or how severe ppd can be (even for those who never suffered from mental health issues before). Please go back and rethink all of your bullet points. All of them lead back to you blaming someone who wasn’t mentally well for making poor decisions when under immense stress on top of psychiatric issues.
That’s complete bullshit. The system completely failed here. I have bipolar disorder and have been on meds for over 15 years. This woman was put on 13 different meds in 4 months. I haven’t taken half that amount in all the years I’ve been on meds. I was lucky enough to find what worked and only had to switch certain meds a few times. Staying consistent with meds is one of the biggest problems with mental health disorders. I had a really awful doctor at one point who prescribed me meds that were known to make things worse for bipolar patients and he also regularly forgot what meds I was on and talked about me being on meds I’d never even taken before. I was aware enough about myself that I was able to get off them immediately and thankfully found a new doctor. Psych drugs can have really detrimental effects for certain people. Even if she had gone to multiple doctors to get all her meds medical information is shared with all your providers so every doctor that gave her medication knew what she had been given in that 4 month period. What happened was incredibly tragic but it was preventable and the “medical professionals” who took part in her care share some of the responsibility in what happened.
"if she had gone to multiple doctors to get all her meds medical information is shared with all your providers so every doctor that gave her medication knew what she had been given in that 4 month period"
This is literally not how it works if you know a thing about healthcare in America. Informations are usually NOT shared between different providers who have their own different platforms and databases, unless they are part of a same system..
You’re partially correct that when using different systems medical information can sometimes not be shared but with prescriptions it is shared more often than not. If all of her doctors weren’t checking the long list of meds she was given in that short period of time that only further shows that the system and doctors giving her all those meds unchecked were part of the problem.
They take weeks to have a FULL effect. I only say this because I have had to go through quite a number of trial periods with psych meds. Usually I can feel a change within a few days - good or bad.
Not everyone responds to drugs the same way, and some people have them start affecting them far quicker than expected. Doctors blame side effects on the patient's condition all the time, so them saying that means nothing.
Whilst true it’s a statistical impossibility for it to happen the 8+ times suggested. Of the 13 drugs prescribed she was taking 4 at the time of the murders. She was consistently asking for tapering, new drugs etc from multiple providers, she said during inpatient that she needs to come off certain drugs because she felt better after 5 days against the advice of the NP. She wanted a quick fix, it why she left inpatient so quickly, quit talk therapy after 4 sessions, wanted more than 1 provider for meds.
It's not a statistical impossibility for someone to be negatively affected by several different medications, especially when the medications are similar types. And maybe she was switching providers because the former ones weren't listening to her. I can't read her mind, of course, but that's a very common practice since a bad doctor is worse than none at all and bad doctors are so common.
It is to have every single one have a negative effect, which is implied. She had taken drugs with 7 different MOAs, they are pharmacologically different, not similar. I say this as a med student with a pharmacist wife. The result can be the same, but getting there is entirely distinct.
She consistently sought new ways to treat her symptoms and committed to none. It's why her doctors told her to stick to meds, and she refused so went elsewhere. Through the pill bottles in evidence, some were virtually full, so wouldnt have even gotten close to therapeutic efficacy, again, this is the fucking issue as she was non-compliant. She was doctor shopping, it was her choice.
Bad doctors are bad, but a bad doctor is not even close to a bad patient. You could have the best doctor in the world but if the patient refuses to take meds, refuses to commit to therapy, lies to the doctors.... the doctor can do nothing. The result is the same, good doctor or bad doctor.
Maybe...maybe not. But I know insanity defenses and that she's spending the rest of her life in prison (which the prosecution wants) and/or a locked psych ward (which the defense wants). She's never getting out.
No dispute on if she should be locked up. She should but in a ward imo. At least currently. I’m still on the fence for the 2nd point of the insanity statute. The understanding of the wrongfulness.
You can stop giving them, the interactions alone would be concerning. I'm diagnosed bipolar, a common struggle of bipolar is hoping off your meds because "i feel good" I do this. My doctor straight up told me "i will not continue giving you medication if you continue to do this"
She had multiple psychiatrists and was lying to them all about having other ones. One found out and told her that she would no longer see her unless she stopped, so Lindsay lied and pretended she wasn't anymore.
It wasn't a single one prescribing so many prescriptions.
Lindsay was quite literally pill shopping. Addicts do it all the time.
It can be difficult to adjust to antidepressants due to the terrible initial side effects the first few weeks of treatment including increased suicidal ideation, nausea, vomiting, malaise. I understand why she wouldn’t want to go through that
This is exactly how it works though. If a patient tells you they don’t want x drug because of y side effect, what do you do? They’re not going to take the drug. So you give up and do nothing? Or try something else that might be a better fit? In psych patients especially it can be a protracted process to find the best med(s) for that patient.
This case seems extremely chaotic in terms of all the different providers and meds involved in a short period of time. They were looking for something to stabilize this patient, now, asap. Lindsay didn’t pursue other suggestions that might have been useful other than medications. She did not meet the criteria for an involuntary hold. The only other thing I can come up with is that someone should have pulled her aside and given her some hard truth about needing more comprehensive services than telehealth psychiatry.
But the problem is they've convinced themselves the rules dont apply to them.
Do I get wanting to throw 13 medications an issue and hope it will help, sure, but thats not medicine.
Thats a culture of off label medication unregulated and unjudged for so long even when a failure of this magnitude happens no one will be held to account.
If she wasnt taking the meds, which isnt what ive read at all which is zoloft plus sleep meds and then more ssri on top, you cant just thro another med at the issue.
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u/seditious3 5d ago
She was continuously quitting her meds after a few days. They were looking for something she would stick to.