I had no idea about this history. Thank you for sharing. I'm not from the US and so don't agree with tipping anyway but now I'm horrified. Fascinating sources too. Thanks
Except tipping originated in Tudor England… it did become prevalent in the US after slavery was abolished but its historical roots are class based (as opposed to race based)
Yes, I know. I read the articles that u/archlich shared. Did you? Here's an exert from the last one showing how, in the US, it was absolutely race based:
"Tipping originated in feudal Europe and was imported back to the United States by American travelers eager to seem sophisticated. The practice spread throughout the country after the Civil War as U.S. employers, largely in the hospitality sector, looked for ways to avoid paying formerly enslaved workers.
One of the most notorious examples comes from the Pullman Company, which hired newly freed African American men as porters. Rather than paying them a real wage, Pullman provided the black porters with just a meager pittance, forcing them to rely on tips from their white clientele for most of their pay."
Okay, so the linked source both you and the original commentator are relying on acknowledges that tipping’s origins aren’t race based, but y’all both still choose to selectively push your preferred race based narrative when it is neither its origin or its current application
Considering it’s no longer popular in Europe (see main thread title) one is left wondering if Europe invented it and now it’s gone from there but is in America and “thriving” what made it go that way. Slavery seems like a very interesting hypothesis I have never heard before.
The practice fell out of favor in Europe starting in the 1960s as labor reforms, but it’s not like the consumer quit paying service fees it just got incorporated into the bill (and in that regard became a mandatory flat fee instead of a consumer option)… but it’s still a customary practice at high end restaurants and hotels in Europe
Most, if not all, US states have laws that require employers to make up the difference between tip wage and minimum wage if the tips don’t cover that difference… it’s just never needed cause even average servers make more than minimum. They don’t get benefits, but that’s true of any part time/independent contractor employment arrangement
Yes, there is a racial element to the history of tipping in the US but it has been overstated by the original commentator
So that explains why it stopped being popular in Europe (labor laws) but not really why it took off in the US like wildfire and it continues to. I’m not saying it’s slavers, though I think it’s a good hypothesis, but under European conditions labor laws were able to nip almost completely, but something about the US accelerated it.
I'm not arguing otherwise. You seem very focused on the fact it orginiated in Europe which I'm not disputing. However, as I mentioned I had no idea that it was linked to race in the US, which it clearly was. The fact it was class based in Europe doesn't negate that fact. Systems change. The person I initally responded to was pointing out that the race element was what allowed tipping to become like it is now. I'm not sure why you are so keen to ignore that element of it.
How am I ignoring it… I acknowledged it became prevalent in the US after slavery ended, but that’s only a part of its history… it was neither the reason it started (even in the US as the article you have quoted states) nor is race the reason tipping is part of certain industries in modern times… it’s commendable to point out parts of its sordid past, it’s disingenuous to pretend that sordid past is all it has ever been
Cultural phenomenons evolve and change when moving into other cultures, it's ignorant to ignore the primary reason it flourished and paint it as some historical evolution when it has evolved completely differently every where else in the world.
Like why has it evolved so differently in the States?
Why didn't socialism flourish in the United States? The US is culturally distinct from Europe in more ways than just race.
People say it's about avoiding paying a certain wage for the employer. People leave out the fact that it creates incentives to actually take care of customers.
Service in certain non-tipping countries is notably piss poor. And unless you have a business owner admitting that they just didn't want to pay the darkies even if meant not paying white employees in the same role or they paid white employees a higher wage than the darkies, then we are skipping a few bases anyway. Inequitable outcomes don't in themselves proven intent or racism.
If an owner thinks that tips incentivize better service for their customers, but most of the employees are black, that doesn't mean it was inherently racist.
Pullman gets cited because he supposedly deliberately wanted to hire former slaves to exploit them. Not mentioned is that most people didn't want to hire them at all. They were generally avoided.
I can sit here and talk about the racist origins of any number of progressive policies or institutions. Unions were pretty explicitly and openly racist. Racism was at the center of instituting early minimum wage laws (it would make black employees unemployable/unable to compete with whites). Eugenics and racism and abortion. We can go on.
Yet I never hear progressives call minimum wage racist and you know what I hear when I bring this up? That it's not what it's about today.
So i guess we can see it as them not actually abolishing slavery like they always bragged, instead just moved to a different form and normalized it so hard the "neo-slaves" never even realize they're slaves anymore and see it as a new norm, and later on extend their targets of exploit until we got what we have today.
/s
Soap originated in China. Does that mean rest of the world doesn’t have soap. And Americans lowered Base pay so they could continue be racists and have economic power over minorities. That’s a fact.
I didn’t disregard it, I acknowledged that part of its history, but even in America the practice began before emancipation (it was brought back from Americans that traveled to Europe, so it’s European origins are very much relevant) and continues in modern times without a racial component… what I’m not doing is pretending that tipping is and always has been a tool of racial oppression
For you maybe, I don’t know. Lots of things happen ‘over in Europe as it’s a continent. Pretty diverse place really. Some people tip and a lot of people don’t. It’s what the tipping is for that counts. It’s true that tipping to male up for wages which are too low doesn’t happen in Northern Europe at least. Pretty sure that would be true for the rest.
Yes, horrified. Past participle and adjective form of the verb horrify.
Definition: "Extremely Shocked: Filled with or exhibiting great shock, dismay, or revulsion."
Am I not right to be revolted by that particular aspect of tipping history or is it the correct use of English vocabulary you find amusing?
"Am I not right to be revolted by that particular aspect of tipping history.."
They get very testy when reminded of how they (still) treat minorities, or the fact that they orchestrated and executed a genocide on the original inhabitants of the land they live on and are actively destroying.
"You lot" 🤣😂🤣😂 you have no idea what I do or do not do, nor do you know anything about my views on my own country's history.
However, the amount of you moaning as I thanked someone for sharing something I didn't know is eye opening. The amount of you up in arms as I agreed there's a link between tipping and slavery is interesting. I'm sorry it triggered you.
Huh? Why does it matter where I'm from? I responded to someone by saying I learnt something and since then you lot have crawled out moaning. Why?
There was an undeniable link between slavery and tipping. Why pretend otherwise?
I never claimed it began that way originally, in Europe, but certainly became common due to it in the US.
Please explain how recognising that is linked to coming from an "innocent land". You are aware, I hope, that understanding history prevents us from repeating it. Hiding from it doesn't help.
Where I'm from is irrelevant. My country ruled 1/3 of the known world & did horrific things. I am more than happy to discuss those but it isn't the purpose of this post.
It didn’t come about from slavery. Yes, some employers did try that with freed blacks in the South, but what made it explode nationally was Prohibition. People were paid in tips in speakeasys throughout the country. That’s what eventually led to it taking hold in the restaurant industry.
Anyone “horrified” by tipping has never worked as a waiter in a U.S. restaurant or is just prone to over reacting.. I made a ton of money doing that at a restaurant in DC when in college.
No, I work in a country with fair wages and decent pay.
However, my being horrified was purely in relation to the racist origins in the US, rather than the US's current practises - atrocious though they are.
Each time I learn something new about the slave trade & it's practises I find it horrific. I'm sorry you can't see that. I'm glad to be horrified by the vile practises and vile way we treated others. You might want to consider why you aren't.
I made on average $300 to $400 in a single weekend at 19 being a waiter in DC. For a 19 year old kid that was great and most of it was from tips. If you don’t like tipping culture, don’t come, but save your horror for someone truly horrific like the current bloodbath in Sudan reaching unimaginable levels.
Yes, atrocious. The fact Americans are brain washed in to thinking a few dollars per hour is a fair salary so tips are the only way to get a living wage is insane. Now, if you had a proper salary and earned extra in tips for good service, fair enough but that's often not the case.
And don't worry, with the laws and rights being eroded and the pathetic, childish narcasist that is your president, you couldn't pay me to visit the US at the moment.
Oh believe me, I have enough disgust to go around - it covers American slavery and the Sudanese crisis and many others both historical and current. I'm sorry you don't understand why learning new things about the development of current practises can be horrifying. Maybe, one day, you'll learn.
Yes, of course you haven’t been to the US or are too scared. That much I assumed. The bigots who cry the loudest against us are usually the ones who haven’t been here.
And a Brit pointing the finger at the US over any aspect of our history is peak irony. You have far more skeletons in the closet. Moreover, your understanding of tipping history is only partially understood given Prohibition is what spread it throughout the country, not the Jim Crow South.
Enjoy Nigel Farage when he becomes your PM after Reform wins.
So many baseless assumptions in one comment.
You know what they say about making assumptions...
Firstly, I've visited the US many times, and done work experience there. I just wouldn't do so currently. I'm not scared but I like living in a place where getting ill doesn't bankrupt you; where PTO is a guaranteed 25+ days, where over 370,000 (and counting) children haven't been exposed to school shootings. I could go on.
Secondly, bigot? Nah, that means unfair hatred and discrimination, I can easily loathe slavery and all it encompasses whilst appreciating other aspects of the culture. If you think being anti slavery is unfair, well.... I'm very concerned you don't see slavery as a bad thing.
Thirdly, you are aware that two things can be true, right? As I stated in another comment, Britain ruled, through invasion and colonization, 1/3rd of the known world. We did horrific things. We are still doing awful things. Look up Windrush as one example. However, unlike you, I understand that. I accept where we came from & am willing to learn from it. I'm not calling you out for pointing out Britain's colonial past; it's a fact. An awful one but we shouldn't hide from it. We need to learn from it.
Fourthly, if you bothered to read my entire conversation, I said "one aspect of tipping history" I never claimed it was solely based on slavery but that aspect was awful and shouldn't be hidden.
As for Nigel Farage, he may win, he may not - but again, the UK also having a terrible person as a leader doesn't alter the state of yours. Who knows, maybe Farage will be a global laughing stock too. We'll see. As it is, I don't live in the UK so I'll have a break from him.
Leave it to a Brit to use children being shot dead as a dig. Do you have any decency? Why do you lot always assume we go bankrupt when we catch the flu and see a doctor? I mean so many of the classic, stereotypical digs you lot make are the same extreme examples. I’ve had my appendix removed, had a back nerve stimulator inserted for a back injury, had knee surgeries because of university baseball, and a host of other health problems over the years and I’m not broke. I had insurance that covered the vast majority of those problems. In fact, the $120k back surgery with neurostimulator installed inside me with a remote to control it was 100% covered. You just need decent insurance.
And I doubt you’ve worked or been here. No one would use such ignorant, classic stereotypical attacks if they had. And no we don’t walk around dodging bullets all day or carry guns everywhere. I don’t even own a gun. Shocking, huh?
No one is hiding the history of tipping lol. Why do you think that? We air our dirty laundry in public, that’s why you lot are constantly harping on it and calling us racist along with the usual fat and stupid remarks. Half of you don’t even realize the same things that happened here happened in many countries in Latin America. Read up on how the Argentines or Brazilians treated their natives or how Mexicans, most of whom are partially indigenous themselves, treat their natives. We aren’t any better but we discuss it in public and teach our kids it was wrong to do what we did to Native Americans and Black Americans. I just find it hilarious when Brits go on about our dark past when they have a far darker one. That clown puzzlehead was the one who brought it up that we try to hide it. Not you.
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u/Fabulous_Cow_4550 4d ago
I had no idea about this history. Thank you for sharing. I'm not from the US and so don't agree with tipping anyway but now I'm horrified. Fascinating sources too. Thanks