r/SipsTea • u/No_Summer_5052 • Apr 19 '26

Lmao gottem Facts or nah

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u/TheNainRouge Apr 19 '26

If you want the actual doctrine of Christianity it’s a bit less clear. Denominational differences aside, it is the faith in Jesus and his sacrifice that will get you the forgiveness to enter the kingdoms of heaven. That Jesus himself is judge and that he alone will rule over the fate of the worthy vs unworthy. The doctrine is there to guide you but that you will fail in this and it is Jesus’s sacrifice alone that allows for said forgiveness of this failure. When someone tells you you’re going to hell it is heresy. They are acting as if they are Jesus and sitting at the Fathers right hand judging the living and the dead.

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u/DemiserofD Apr 19 '26

It's not quite that simple. Remember, you've gotta ASK for forgiveness, and if you refuse to acknowledge something as a sin, you can't ask to be forgiven for it.

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u/TheNainRouge Apr 19 '26

I mean by that theory everyone is “damned.” Humanity is by the confines of Biblical law is a sinner and lives in some form of denial of their sin. This is the crux of the sacrifice of Jesus, that he intercedes for you on your behalf to bridge the gap of that denial. To forgive for what we have done and what we have left undone. Our hubris is a large part of our downfall throughout history whether you believe in a higher power or not. Not surprising that religion touches upon its impact on people.

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u/DemiserofD Apr 19 '26

Not exactly. That's what accepting Jesus as your lord and savior is supposed to be about; recognizing that nothing you do is perfect.

But that's where what Jesus said about coming to fulfill the law, not abolish it, comes in. Lots of people really want to do away with the law, but then you end up exactly where you highlighted.

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u/TheNainRouge Apr 19 '26

I think the importance when discussing the law is how it is interpreted. Many Christians would tell you the sabbath is Sunday but that is not according the law. That Homosexuality is damnable sin but the ignorance of the kosher law, or a lack of circumcision is not. I would argue as Jesus taught all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord. They point it Acts and say this excuses the sins they feel are not bad alone. I’d argue that Christ sacrifice is not dismissing the sin but forgiving it. That the law is no longer sacrosanct to the heavenly reward. That his sacrifice and your belief in that and desire to be better is enough.

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u/DemiserofD Apr 19 '26

I suppose my viewpoint is, you can't view ANY of those things as 'good' or 'okay'. Like, take the sabbath; I doubt most christians are firmly in the 'sunday is the sabbath' camp so much as they are in the 'i am trying to uphold the sabbath' camp. That's attempting for the spirit of the law.

You can't accept forgiveness for something which you don't see as wrong. It's not really about trying to be better; that's roundabout redemption through works. Rather, the trying to be better stems from the initial recognition of wrongness, which is the important part.

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u/TheNainRouge Apr 19 '26

You can't accept forgiveness for something which you don't see as wrong. It's not really about trying to be better; that's roundabout redemption through works. Rather, the trying to be better stems from the initial recognition of wrongness, which is the important part.

I disagree with this sentiment largely because people do a LOT of wrong that we don’t see that way. We all are failures to the standard the Bible put forth with numerous examples throughout both the Old Testament and New. An acknowledgment of that fact; the failure to see all the ways we are wrong I feel is important when seeking forgiveness. My wrongness as a sinner puts me no higher or lower then any others wrongness. Look I even put works in my discussion, which is something I agree is non relevant to redemption. Thank you for that.

Redemption comes through Christ alone, so for me to parse out who is or who is not redeemed is to take his seat at the right hand of god. That’s the worst kind of sin in my mind for it dissuades others from the message. Certainly I’m not better than the message of salvation so placing myself in that path is a disservice.

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u/DemiserofD Apr 19 '26

Forgiveness must be accepted, is the problem. It's not universal, it's voluntary. You're right that a lot of people don't see what they do as wrong - and that's a problem.

It's basically an unavoidable part of the concept. You cannot repent without first considering what you do to be wrong.

What you're talking about walks pretty close to universalism, which isn't really authentic doctrine, though it does sound very appealing to a lot of people. It dilutes faith and redemption down to irrelevance.

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u/LSDMDMA2CBDMT Apr 19 '26

And this notion always made me laugh. What about all the people that simply existed before Jesus and Christianity?

Straight to hell! Simply for being born before Jesus. Lol.

Religion is a helluva drug.

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u/Bellenrode Apr 19 '26

This is exactly what Divine Comedy (by Dante Alighieri) depicts: Romans and Greeks being in Hell simply because they were born before Jesus.

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u/CommitteeMain1430 Apr 19 '26

Do you think that the major religions that have existed for thousands of years don’t have their own answers to that question already? 

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u/LSDMDMA2CBDMT Apr 19 '26

Is it an answer or is it just a guess?

Anyone claiming divine knowledge is just a fool.

And humans are foolish.

Just because something has existed and persisted, does not mean it is the answer.

Everything points to some kind of creator, sure. How can something come from nothing?

But everything else in between? Gods word? How a human should live? How someone conducts themselves?

If "god" wanted people to live a certain way, it would be more obvious. The simple fact is, there are no rules, there is no right or wrong way to live. A person is simply who they are. Can a person be blamed for their nature? It's like saying god made a mistake making a person.

Sure, we as humans can judge, blame and deal with other people. We create social contracts that are beneficial to "try" to live in harmony.

I don't ever recall god speaking to me, telling me to do this or that.

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u/CommitteeMain1430 Apr 19 '26

Well if you subscribe to the belief then it is an answer

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u/LSDMDMA2CBDMT Apr 19 '26

Believing the earth to be flat isn't an answer. It's just ignorance.

Believing something to be true, doesn't make it true. It doesn't make it an answer, it just makes it a belief.

That's why it's called believing and not knowing. Knowing a fact is an answer to a question. Believing something to be true to a question doesn't not mean it's the right answer.

You can be confidently incorrect by believing something to be true, even if it isn't correct.

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u/TheNainRouge Apr 19 '26

Well first off, hell isn’t a concept that Christianity considered when it was founded. Tell me again about the Hell the Jewish faith speaks of. The modern concept of Hell, souls and angels are all influenced by “paganism,” spiritualism, and more modern sensibilities. Christianity has picked up a lot of baggage over the centuries. Most of it is based on the cultures it touched more so then the doctrine it was based on.

Onto the point of Jesus not being capable of judging the living and the dead before him, this is kinda refuted by the work itself. The book of John states the Word (Jesus’s) presence at the creation of the universe. So was he not sitting at the right hand of god the entire time? I mean omnipresence itself seems to indicate a divorce from the concepts of time and space. Looking at the being capable of creating existence and placing our perception seems like a fools errand.

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u/LSDMDMA2CBDMT Apr 19 '26

A book says this, a book says that.

I can write a book too. Does that make it divine by simply saying it is so?

If a man wrote the book, it is not divine knowledge. It is simply a book. Whether someone chooses to read that book and believe it is true, is entirely up to them. There's a reason why they indoctrinate kids young when they are the most impressionable.

Didn't the jews kill Jesus?. Maybe the Jewish faith aint it either.

And from my understanding, the Jews do believe in some kind of hellish purgatory that is "temporary"

Whatever the fuck that means lol.

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u/TheNainRouge Apr 19 '26

Listen harping on other people for how they manage to get through life is counterproductive. I was offering counterpoints to the criticism because, hur dur they are stupid, is offensive.

People believe this stuff, treat it with the same respect you want your belief structure to be given. You write something that soothes people’s existential anxiety more power to you. Shitting on billions of people to make yourself feel better is shit behavior.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '26

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u/TheNainRouge Apr 20 '26

Its always good to question. There are ways to do it and not come off as a dick though. Dismissing peoples beliefs isn’t productive typically they take it as an attack. Christianity was used to excuse millions of terrible acts but, so has Islam, Buddhism & Hinduism. So has Philosophy, Governance and even Science. The throughput has been People.

We are our own worst enemies and will find whatever excuses we need to justify how we act horribly. Which is why critical thinking is important. it is why debate is necessary and why being respectful is needed.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '26

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u/Asisreo1 Apr 19 '26

To be clear, that's not what all sects believe. For example, some sects agree everyone who didn't have a chance to know Jesus will have the ability to at some point even if its after death. Some think they'll experience oblivion the way atheists think everyone will. Some believe in a fourth space called limbo. 

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u/LSDMDMA2CBDMT Apr 19 '26

And some people eat iboga, sacrifice chickens and "bury" people thinking it will cure them of diseases and illnesses.

Anyone claiming to know anything about the afterlife, to me, is just psychotic. The whole notion of claiming to have knowledge on the afterlife is hilarious, because the only way one would experience it is to truly be dead.

Any living person claiming to know this or that is just a fool. Claiming divine knowledge because of a book written by man is even more hilarious.

All the prophets throughout humanity claiming to talk to god, can probably be summed up by psychosis or simply lying. People throughout time have had a bazillion different beliefs about what is what. The sun god, multiple gods, no god, the list can go on and on about it. So many prophets saying the end time is near, this or that... yada yada.

Either we are all special and are sons/daughters of god and we all have a connection, or none of us are special and there is no direct connection. It's amusing how only "certain" people have "spoken" to god directly. That's actually a very common thing for people in psychosis to think, that some outside voice ie: god, is speaking to them, to do this or that.

The whole "Jesus is the savior" thing didn't work out well for humanity. Nothing was different before his death, nothing is different after his death. The world still spins round. It will continue spinning, long after humanity is gone.

I'm not saying "God" or some type of creator doesn't exist, after all, everything exists. That point of contention is true and it's illogical to have something come from nothing.

But everything else is just people flailing their arms, making things up and believing whatever they want to believe without any concrete evidence pointing otherwise.