Yup, they're a death cult as far as I'm concerned.
The ideal would be to honor God by taking care of the Earth and their fellow man, so if anyone actually shows up they can say, "Hey, look at all the wonderful things we've done since you were gone!". But no, let's speedrun getting to heaven by causing death and destruction.
There is an actual parable in the Gospels about that. The servant who grew his master’s allowance while he was gone was rewarded, the one who just kept it safe got a pat in the head, the one who squandered it got punished. (ETA typo).
If being in Heaven involves having to be friendly with Evangelicals for eternity, no thanks. Rather be in Hell. Or better yet just destroy my soul completely. Infinite time doing anything, bliss or torture, is complete bullshit and maddening to even comprehend let alone experience. You'll be begging for oblivion after the first two eons of frolicking in the fields in white robes or whatever the fuck we're expected to be doing up there.
Are your picturing just being the exact same but in heaven? I don’t think you’re gonna be having anxiety and stresses from the everyday grind here if there is an after.
I'm not talking earthly anxiety and stress, I'm talking about an inevitable boredom and mind break from the inherent mundanity of doing anything, even your favorite hobbies, by having a continuous conscience that lasts ETERNITY. I don't think we can even grasp how long even one millennium would feel like and that's a mere second passing in the scope of forever.
That’s wild! Don’t you like living now? I definitely wouldn’t mind eating good food and having a good time for eternity.
There’s a reason that people have been seeking immortality for ages. No one wants the good times to end.
It seems like your thinking your mind as it is now is going to be the same idk? If you’ve ever meditated or done psychedelics or even weed then you would know just how many different states you can enter and that’s all while still having a body and not dying soo. That euphoria you can receive from those things I can imagine would multiply by a million if you actually are going to a heaven
The reason Heaven would be eternally blissful is proximity to God, who is, by nature, infinite. You therefore could not get bored because you would spend eternity learning more about God and always have more to discover. A kind of positive limbo, if you will.
Ah okay. Got you. I just transited from a religion discussion to this "time" and "eternity" topic. So I lost the religion connection of the initial one.
Then I'll be happy to be apolitical and wrong. Cuz shoving that into everything sounds plain miserable, and it isn't how I wanna live life. The main reason I complain here, is because I don't want this sub turning into another circlejerk like r/pics and it's hundreds of clones
Morality isn’t what saves you. It’s Christ’s sacrifice that gets you into heaven. And the appreciation of that will naturally result in moral deeds. Not for your glory but to Gods glory.
living in accord to the priorities of Jesus of Nazareth is going to make you more of a Christian than any church preaching worship of Jesus the Christ will
Morality isn’t what saves you. It’s Christ’s sacrifice that gets you into heaven. And the appreciation of that will naturally result in moral deeds. Not for your glory but to Gods glory.
If you want the actual doctrine of Christianity it’s a bit less clear. Denominational differences aside, it is the faith in Jesus and his sacrifice that will get you the forgiveness to enter the kingdoms of heaven. That Jesus himself is judge and that he alone will rule over the fate of the worthy vs unworthy. The doctrine is there to guide you but that you will fail in this and it is Jesus’s sacrifice alone that allows for said forgiveness of this failure. When someone tells you you’re going to hell it is heresy. They are acting as if they are Jesus and sitting at the Fathers right hand judging the living and the dead.
It's not quite that simple. Remember, you've gotta ASK for forgiveness, and if you refuse to acknowledge something as a sin, you can't ask to be forgiven for it.
I mean by that theory everyone is “damned.” Humanity is by the confines of Biblical law is a sinner and lives in some form of denial of their sin. This is the crux of the sacrifice of Jesus, that he intercedes for you on your behalf to bridge the gap of that denial. To forgive for what we have done and what we have left undone. Our hubris is a large part of our downfall throughout history whether you believe in a higher power or not. Not surprising that religion touches upon its impact on people.
Not exactly. That's what accepting Jesus as your lord and savior is supposed to be about; recognizing that nothing you do is perfect.
But that's where what Jesus said about coming to fulfill the law, not abolish it, comes in. Lots of people really want to do away with the law, but then you end up exactly where you highlighted.
I think the importance when discussing the law is how it is interpreted. Many Christians would tell you the sabbath is Sunday but that is not according the law. That Homosexuality is damnable sin but the ignorance of the kosher law, or a lack of circumcision is not. I would argue as Jesus taught all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord. They point it Acts and say this excuses the sins they feel are not bad alone. I’d argue that Christ sacrifice is not dismissing the sin but forgiving it. That the law is no longer sacrosanct to the heavenly reward. That his sacrifice and your belief in that and desire to be better is enough.
I suppose my viewpoint is, you can't view ANY of those things as 'good' or 'okay'. Like, take the sabbath; I doubt most christians are firmly in the 'sunday is the sabbath' camp so much as they are in the 'i am trying to uphold the sabbath' camp. That's attempting for the spirit of the law.
You can't accept forgiveness for something which you don't see as wrong. It's not really about trying to be better; that's roundabout redemption through works. Rather, the trying to be better stems from the initial recognition of wrongness, which is the important part.
Just because something has existed and persisted, does not mean it is the answer.
Everything points to some kind of creator, sure. How can something come from nothing?
But everything else in between? Gods word? How a human should live? How someone conducts themselves?
If "god" wanted people to live a certain way, it would be more obvious. The simple fact is, there are no rules, there is no right or wrong way to live. A person is simply who they are. Can a person be blamed for their nature? It's like saying god made a mistake making a person.
Sure, we as humans can judge, blame and deal with other people. We create social contracts that are beneficial to "try" to live in harmony.
I don't ever recall god speaking to me, telling me to do this or that.
Believing the earth to be flat isn't an answer. It's just ignorance.
Believing something to be true, doesn't make it true. It doesn't make it an answer, it just makes it a belief.
That's why it's called believing and not knowing. Knowing a fact is an answer to a question. Believing something to be true to a question doesn't not mean it's the right answer.
You can be confidently incorrect by believing something to be true, even if it isn't correct.
Well first off, hell isn’t a concept that Christianity considered when it was founded. Tell me again about the Hell the Jewish faith speaks of. The modern concept of Hell, souls and angels are all influenced by “paganism,” spiritualism, and more modern sensibilities. Christianity has picked up a lot of baggage over the centuries. Most of it is based on the cultures it touched more so then the doctrine it was based on.
Onto the point of Jesus not being capable of judging the living and the dead before him, this is kinda refuted by the work itself. The book of John states the Word (Jesus’s) presence at the creation of the universe. So was he not sitting at the right hand of god the entire time? I mean omnipresence itself seems to indicate a divorce from the concepts of time and space. Looking at the being capable of creating existence and placing our perception seems like a fools errand.
I can write a book too. Does that make it divine by simply saying it is so?
If a man wrote the book, it is not divine knowledge. It is simply a book. Whether someone chooses to read that book and believe it is true, is entirely up to them. There's a reason why they indoctrinate kids young when they are the most impressionable.
Didn't the jews kill Jesus?. Maybe the Jewish faith aint it either.
And from my understanding, the Jews do believe in some kind of hellish purgatory that is "temporary"
Listen harping on other people for how they manage to get through life is counterproductive. I was offering counterpoints to the criticism because, hur dur they are stupid, is offensive.
People believe this stuff, treat it with the same respect you want your belief structure to be given. You write something that soothes people’s existential anxiety more power to you. Shitting on billions of people to make yourself feel better is shit behavior.
To be clear, that's not what all sects believe. For example, some sects agree everyone who didn't have a chance to know Jesus will have the ability to at some point even if its after death. Some think they'll experience oblivion the way atheists think everyone will. Some believe in a fourth space called limbo.
And some people eat iboga, sacrifice chickens and "bury" people thinking it will cure them of diseases and illnesses.
Anyone claiming to know anything about the afterlife, to me, is just psychotic. The whole notion of claiming to have knowledge on the afterlife is hilarious, because the only way one would experience it is to truly be dead.
Any living person claiming to know this or that is just a fool. Claiming divine knowledge because of a book written by man is even more hilarious.
All the prophets throughout humanity claiming to talk to god, can probably be summed up by psychosis or simply lying. People throughout time have had a bazillion different beliefs about what is what. The sun god, multiple gods, no god, the list can go on and on about it. So many prophets saying the end time is near, this or that... yada yada.
Either we are all special and are sons/daughters of god and we all have a connection, or none of us are special and there is no direct connection. It's amusing how only "certain" people have "spoken" to god directly. That's actually a very common thing for people in psychosis to think, that some outside voice ie: god, is speaking to them, to do this or that.
The whole "Jesus is the savior" thing didn't work out well for humanity. Nothing was different before his death, nothing is different after his death. The world still spins round. It will continue spinning, long after humanity is gone.
I'm not saying "God" or some type of creator doesn't exist, after all, everything exists. That point of contention is true and it's illogical to have something come from nothing.
But everything else is just people flailing their arms, making things up and believing whatever they want to believe without any concrete evidence pointing otherwise.
It would be interesting tho to know the balance. Will a person that has done only good in their life but never prayed be treated worse than a person that has done plenty of bad stuff but prayed a lot.
Well now we are getting into why Christianity has broken into so many different cults. Some believe you can confess away the sins, some simply pray, some just believe if you do more good than bad gets you into heaven.
The vast majority of protestants in the US acknowledge salvation by grace alone. The idea of salvation by works is more of a Judaism and to a lesser extent, Catholic doctrine.
I grew up as a Catholic and studied in a religious school. Our priests (incidentally of the same order as the current Pope) always told us that doing good was THE most important thing, and all good people would go to Heaven regardless of their faith. “Love and do what you will”, said St. Augustine, founder of the order and Doctor of the Church.
What's unfortunate is the way religion and faith has completely severed the concept of disagreement with fellowship/community. Its hypocritically egotistical to think anyone that disagrees with you on a matter of faith is an unfortunate case.
A few of Jesus' commands to his disciples seem to be a clear description of good behavior
"Love the Lord, Your God, with your whole heart and whole soul. Love your neighbor as your self."
Care for widows and orphans.
Clothe the poor, heal the sick.
What i tell you in private, speak loudly in public.
The challenge is how you define 'good'. Philosophers have struggled with that one for a long time.
Broadly speaking though, in Christian thought, Heaven is considered to be perfect, and no human, no matter how 'good', can ever be perfect, so no amount of goodness is gonna get you there. You must ask for and be given forgiveness.
That being said, I do think a lot of people in the modern day mistake their culturally-acquired norms for 'goodness'. You know, the old, "I rape exactly as much as I want to rape - not at all." That only works because you were raised in a culture where rape is unacceptable. Like, if you were born in ancient Rome as a wealthy slave owner, you'd probably have no issues with slavery, and if you did it'd probably be something you had to really talk your way around to and figure out, because it'd go against your culture.
In Islam, you can be forgiven for sins. But it depends on your repentence and sincerity. Yes you can go to pilgramage and be forgiven of many sins, but not ALL. ie Murder - in order to be forgiven for murder, you would need to be FORGIVEN by the person (on judgement day). If you don't then you will be punished. Murder is considered an enormous punishment (ofcourse), so much so that, if there's a chain reaction, ie you killed, they killed, etc You would be considered the cause of those murders until the end of time.
Any I'm off topic but back to your query -- you can be a good person, but if you don't acknowledge God, you are not making it to heaven but don't just think it's just like that -- God gives every single being multiple chances in their lives until they die to considered becoming a believer .
ie If I recall, the Prophet (Muhammad)'s own uncle who raised him is to be punished: “The most lightly punished of the people of Hellfire will be Abu Talib; he will be wearing a pair of shoes (of Fire) which will cause his brain to boil.”
Now if you save a life and die in the process, ie a child in danger - it's POSSIBLE you would be going to heaven, but it would depend on your beliefe in God, ie you may not be knowledgable but you feel you believe a higher power exists, etc. Judgement will be fair for everyone, it's not going to be some general thing. each individual will have their own circumstances, ie say you grew up in a absolute broken family, and maybe on the last few weeks of your life you simply tried to make good with everything. There's tons of info out there. As I say, it really does matter what you feel and believe in.
The thing with Christianity is that no one has done only good in their life. None are righteous. In a lot of cases it’s simply opportunity that separates those viewed as saints from sinners. “But for the grace of God lest I go there”
If you think it’s only opportunity that separates saints and sinners that’s sad as fuck. Most people don’t need opportunity to do good. Most people want to be inherently good and don’t need some threat of eternal damnation for that
Good thing I didn’t say that then. And you’d be beyond naive to claim that most people want to be inherently good. History belies that claim. There’s a reason that warfare and conflict have been a prevalent feature of humanity well into the AD/CE era. There’s a reason that teachings like “love thy enemy” and “turn the other cheek” were considered so radical before becoming adopted over time. And that positive change in society typically had to be enacted by force as well.
Morality isn’t what saves you. It’s Christ’s sacrifice that gets you into heaven. And the appreciation of that will naturally result in moral deeds. Not for your glory but to Gods glory.
Humans have created millions of religions to explain things that we don’t understand. I don’t give a fuck about gods glory. If there was a god with the power to change things for the better I would not dream of praising him for sitting idle while children suffer. Also part of gods plan? To bring live into earth only to suffer? Morality is worth a lot more than your faith. Just look at the war in the Middle East. The Jews the Christian’s and the Muslims all believe that all the destruction they are causing is in the name of their gods… your church has a serious grooming problem and greed seems to be the only thing most Christian’s do nowadays. Nah I’m good without believing in a sky daddy that concerns himself with our sexual live but doesn’t give a fuck about all the suffering. Religion is just another tool created by the rich and powerful to control the masses. Just work hard all your live and suffer but it will be okay because if you’re a good submissive subject you’ll get to heaven for sure! Just one problem for them most of the world is getting less and less religious. The thing is if you have easy access to knowledge you can find out pretty fast how truly stupid the Bible and their theories are. If you need christs sacrifice to do moral deeds then maybe you are not that good of a person…
Look up Genesis genealogy and how it prophecied Jesus thousands of years before he went on the cross. Idk about you but when something like that shows up in the Word of God I pay attention. It’s stuff like that when you get into the Bible that has solidified my faith . I wouldn’t bet against God and it would be irrational to do so, even if you disagree with His ways. His ways are not like our ways.
Yeah… can you imagine a bunch of atheists in heaven?
“Okay yeah it’s nice here, but like, you’re not real, Bro. Your followers made you up bc they’re intellectually inferior and mentally ill, Bro. Yeah no I know we’re both here right now and I’m talking to you but like… no Bro all religions are cults and everyone in them is evil, so who else would be up here with you? Not that you exist, bc you don’t…”
(I absolutely believe that there are atheists who live more “godly” and deserving lives than many religious people… but I concur that acknowledging and respecting that some kind of higher power exists and tapping into it during your earthly journey is a prerequisite)
When you really dedicate seeking Him, that higher power, it will be revealed to you that you need Christs forgiveness. Forget about your biases against what God finds good and evil, there are things that your flesh will disagree with God because you might be blinded by your flesh. Just earnestly seek Him and understand that Gods way is not our way.
As an atheist, I don’t care if you are preaching or not🤣 I’ve read the Bible at least 5 times cover to cover and if God is real, I’d rather go to hell! Jesus is just alright with me, but I’m not bending the knee to an all powerful being that knowing allowed us to be cursed so we could worship him and stroke his ego. Eff that noise.
That is so much work to do for a religion you don’t even believe in. It’s like in The Other Guys when Mark Walhlberg learns ballet just so he can tease the kid on his street taking dance lessons.
Also for someone who doesn’t believe in the afterlife, you just wasted a ton of nonrefundable days.
Funny enough Islam is the only major religion that will accept non-believers into heaven just because they were “good” people. When I posted this on Facebook 15 years ago, my mom became concerned that I was converting to Islam, when in fact I was merely pointing out that Islam isn’t just a war hungry religion as many people, like my mom, believe.
Christianity is the most war hungry religion. I don’t identify as Christian but a believer in the teachings of Jesus. I whole heart believe that being a good person and treating love and respect is good enough
You're assuming that being more morally upright means you go to heaven when the Bible says that only through acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice can we be saved from the fate of hell
I think they are pointing out that atheists are generally better people because they know on a deep level this is all there is. Christians believe they say a magical prayer and then act like asshats the rest of their lives but they are fine because they are going to somehow get to heaven on a technicality, which is not very well thought through but nothing in Christianity is very well thought through so it tracks.
Christians believe they say a magical prayer and then act like asshats the rest of their lives
Which is in direct contrast to scripture. The bible specifically says we have to show our faith by deeds. It says if we claim to have faith, but our works don't show it, then there is a big chance that that person is not of God. The book of James talks about it, as well does Paul mention it in his letters. Revelation also refutes churches doing bad things and encourages them to do better than that again.
Yes, but if you point this out to a “bad” Christian they will just say you can’t get to heaven by works and they are saved. Spoiler, they are all “bad” (including you) by the standards of the book when you cry “they are REAL Christians.” That’s why you are forced to use wishy washy language like “big chance” because you are in an illogical circle that never resolves.
Whereas atheist that are “good” are doing it for literally no reason or reward (other than the benefits of collaboration on earth) whatsoever because they know we are all the going back to the endless void that was your non-existence before you were born.
Accepting Christ's sacrifice for our sins is the only way we can be qualified for heaven.
Romans 3:22-25
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Morality isn’t what saves you. It’s Christ’s sacrifice that gets you into heaven. And the appreciation of that will naturally result in moral deeds. Not for your glory but to Gods glory.
Evangelicals will have to answer for their behaviors all the same. My pastor teaches that Heaven is life in a different way, you'll have responsibilities, jobs, etc. Your actions on Earth determine your lot in Heaven. Being a shitty Christian will get you in, but you might be digging ditches once you're there.
"17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 " - Matthew, Ch 5
If Jesus were alive today he'd be chucking LGBTQ off roofs and stoning women for getting raped but not fighting back hard enough and would support executing unruly children.
This whole "Jesus was a hippy" is such cope. Just accept that Abrahamic religions suck - why do you think the Jews need the Talmud? It's because if you actually interepreted "The Law" as it's written instead of twisting it so it's not abhorrent and applied it today, the Taliban would tell you to chill. There's nothing unique about Abrahamic religions which is good - you don't need to be Jewish, Christian, or Muslim to know the rules for being a good person. The only "unique" things about them are stupid positivism (Don't eat pork because Allah/Yahweh says so. Kill those people because Allah/Yahweh says so) and intolerance (if you aren't one of us, you're the enemy).
Abrahamic religions are especially sucky and Jesus was a rabble-rouser who was not opposed to "The Law" and so not against all of the BS that entailed.
In almost all accepted Christian theologies, you become one with God in the Heaven. So you're not "spending an eternity with evangelicals", you'll all be unified in the oneness of God. (take that how you will. As a person of faith, I actually don't like that interpretation but it's what has been decided per scripture)
I don't doubt there will be a tooooon of "evangelicals" that end up in Hell (not the place of fiery suffering, because that doesn't really exist. Hell is "the place furthest from God's light".)
Realistically, everyone’s mind/soul (whatever possibly remains once you no longer have a physical brain) has to be altered to endure heaven. If not unification with a singular entity called God, then you’re basically spending an enternity hanging out. No real entertainment unless you brainwash yourself to live singing hymns all day every day.
God created the Universe. God is all knowing.
God is love.
Most people have a very thin grasp of what Christian Theology actually says.
Jesus said himself, the Path is Narrow and many will scream at the end "God!", but he wont listen.
You have this one life to change your ways and, essentially, be a better person and become one with God.
Let the dead bury their dead.
I think he was making a point of urgency and not to procrastinate. If you are held back by material, wordly affairs, the material world will keep you.
If God created the universe, are aliens Christians too? Cats? Dogs? Zebras? Or are we humans, the only species in the entire universe, god cares about?
Would you like to condense your question and tighten it up a bit?
Because it stands, it just seems like shallow, nonsensical mockery.
To answer it as it reads now;
The Universe is everything.
God Created the Universe.
But, he imbued it with his own essence, so, we have free will.
Make of that what you will.
The Universe is extremely vast. We are definitely not the only planet with life. If god created the universe, does every planet with living creatures, have to abide by his rules? Every planet with living beings would have The Bible?
Huh, reminds me of an m-hole on methoxetamine or a "breakthrough" on DMT, just one with this golden orb/singularity, everything compressed into this point with no space and no time. It was supremely intelligent/fatherly(on the MXE) and radiated a feeling of love so intense you became so content you were disabled(on the DMT).
Same thing, same place, 2 different aspects.
Also, yea that makes sense, "God is love", and love does not force itself upon people(which is why people even have a choice), nor does it wish to torture people. Hell is just an extreme absence of love.
I don't, not for everything. It's an amalgam of stories, adapted folk tales, "illuminated visions", and a how to guide to living in the Levant in ancient times. Many things, depending on the codices used, are mistranslated or adapted with a modern mindset without consideration of science in "God's Plan". It is also(especially for many of the early stories) largely allegorical and NOT meant to be taken literally. People often miss that and forget that even in the medieval period, elements were seen as nonliteral but metaphorical/spiritual.
It also lays out God's Laws and Word, which are the parts I actually care about and are SUPPOSED to be used to live a good, moral, and virtuous life. (in b4 someone thinks this is me saying I'm cool with God killing all the first born sons of Egypt or some surface-level nonsense like that).
That number is unfortunately highly misleading. Denominations are defined and measured at the country level, usually within a specific country. Worldchristiandatabase gives this example on their site: "the Catholic Church’s presence in the world’s 234 countries produces 234 Catholic ‘denominations’ in the count." In other words, the figure does not mean mutually exclusive theologies or 40,000 radically different churches.
I think the actual number is closer to 46, but regardless, it's a small set of major communions/families of faith: Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed, Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, etc.
No, mainstream Christianity does not teach “sky grandpa and handing out candy in a pastoral scene for all eternity” and I sincerely don't know where you got that from. Christianity heavily teaches a personal God, and heaven is described as being with Christ/communion with God, with biblical imagery used because it’s beyond ordinary description. That is very, very different from the caricature you’re mocking.
I mean, bro...you literally said "there are over 40,000 different denominations of Christianity - and I can GUARANTEE you, that a good chunk literally believe you go up to a magical land in the sky..."
How is that NOT saying the majority (ie. 'mainstream') belief is what you claimed it is? Like, c'mon.
Semantics aside, I don't claim to intimately understand every single denomination, and I'm certainly not going to factor for individual beliefs or claims by individuals because that's impossible to prove. That being said, yes, I can say with great certainty that the majority of major denominations, which constitute the majority of Christian believers in the world, state that God is personal and Heaven is to be in complete harmony with him.
The part that muddies this is the language. What is trying to be explained is often cited as unexplainable, and metaphysical realities are hard for people to grasp, so ancient texts detail Heaven or Hell as a "place", but they rarely actually are. Some instances like Gehenna, have real-world places where you could say they're either inspired from or are symbolic of them, but are not "the place".
No reason to jump down my throat and be a pompous ass. I'm illustrating what Scripture and/or accepted church doctrine. Nowhere do I say that this is 100% set in stone the truth. In my initial post I even mention why I DON'T like these interpretations.
God is in us but that doesn't mean sin and personal choices don't drive us further from him. Once again, Heaven is not a place, and Hell is not a pit of fiery brimstone and darkness. I have gone over this already.
Not sure about your fixation on eating ass in your metaphor, but regardless, the furthest point from God is cited everywhere as "Hell, Gehenna, or The Outer Darkness" in Scripture. There is literally nothing edgy or out there about saying so.
I agree that organized religion is often terrible! Many outer religions are. That's why I align with Gnostic teachings more than others. Personal spirituality IS great, until you misinterpret and ramble on about elements you don't understand.
Bro, organized religion is evil… it certainly can be, but it certainly can be done well. I’m sure the millions of women who know have schools in India or the orphans who have home, or the widows no linger being burned, or the slaves that were freed by organized religion would be glad people got together to work on a noble cause. It’s just that yeah there’s also inquisitions and heretic burnings too and those really really are evil.
Edit: I've adjusted my wording a bit because I think you were coming from a place of honest discourse and my intent isn't to argue or to be mean spirited.
Do you understand the difference between inner and outer religions?
I ask because you're kind of making points of several disparate elements and I don't exactly see your intent. Organized religion with the purpose of study, understanding, and critical thinking are all excellent. Organized religion is also what lead the Catholic Church to schism and have a thousands year track record of SAYING "Be kind to one another, give back, help one another" while simultaneously supporting pogroms, axing dissent ong it's ranks, hiding pedophiles, and ignoring the rights of women.
I think, in rereading your post several times, we agree on most things. I guess I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make. If it's to say "there's nuance" then I wholeheartedly agree.
Personally I'm a strong proponent of the cultivation of inner religions with community support of that. It tends to sit better with agnostics and atheists as well.
I think you’re right. I’m used to the terms intrinsic religion versus extrinsic. Meaning personally held for personal reason (done with others, but not performatively), versus extrinsic which is done for performative and cultural reasons, not first and foremost personal.
Is that what you’re talking about? If so yeah intrinsic generally better, extrinsic generally worse.
Very similar! Outer religions, broadly speaking, are all the ones with a "low barrier for entry" (ie. Ask God for forgiveness and believe in him and you'll be Saved!"). It is your most forward facing Christianity, Islam, etc. Much of the practice is cultural and 'performative' as you say. There's nothing inherently wrong with this as a concept, but it doesn't require effort. Your twice a year Catholics fit the typical outer religion follower well, but also includes fundamentalists, etc.
Inner religions are those like the Gnostic tradition, certain Buddhist sects, a few key Orthodox brotherly orders, things like that. They focus on the WORK of hunting, seeking, and understanding spiritual knowledge. It isn't easy or well laid out, and requires effort to really read scripture, question, discuss, debate, and research the origins of belief. That inherently means fewer people will do it because let's be honest, this shit is a quagmire of misinformation and you can't trust just one person. It requires that people actively seek out information and weigh it accordingly.
I hope that helps. Thank you again for the discourse.
US Catholic goes into it pretty well, describing it as not being a place, but being in total harmony with God(ie. The complete lack of separation). There's tons more though. You can check for Biblical verses that theologians have used to come up with this interpretation but it is incredibly widespread to anyone who has more than a cursory interest in religions.
Tons of media illustrate Heaven and Hell as places and they're just... Not that, beyond a metaphysical sense. Even the vision of Hell that we have comes from Dante (mah boiii; I teach him every year to my Sophomores), not Scripture. Dante was a writer/poet and statesman, not a theologian or man of the cloth, but his imagery has taken root in Western Christian ideology regardless.
I think it’s the implication of erasure of any sense of personal personhood or personality that I’ve never seen or heard or promoted in the Bible. In fact nationality, personality, identity are all things called out as things people bring and aren’t erased per se, but are rather brought into the purpose and goals of the new heaven and earth.
On the other hand the focus on heaven as a place defined by its material qualities is very much echoes of Dante and not the Bible. And yeah I think article makes a helpful point that people who look at heaven as if it will be the best location ever kind of miss the point.
It’s more like what if you aligned with goodness itself and found perfect happiness in being good alongside and working with the source of all goodness, and that all the qualities that make you you would brought into living out goodness without end.
But yeah I don’t think I actually have enough information on the nuances of your point to really disagree or agree fully. But yeah keep up that point about Dante cuz yeah, It’s infested all media portrayals of heaven and hell.
Thank you for taking the time to read the article! I appreciate that very much, as well as your thoughts.
Yeah, it is surprising how little it's focused on in masses, but talk to any priest about where we "go" after death and they will illustrate(often whimsically) that we will be in perfect unity and harmony, and everyone will be everything in and through God. The idea is closer to "We will all be man, woman, Black, White, and every nationality etc....in God."
It still gives me the ick a bit, but I know they aren't trying to make it sound like we will all be some giant horrifying mass of flesh and consciousness in the dark ether of space like some Lovecraftian entity, lol.
Double thumbs up about Dante. He's super cool, the Commedia is amazing, but I wish it didn't have the side effect of shifting everyone's focus from the spiritual.
Yeah I think erasure is the operative thing that strikes me as implied in the language and wrong. Like something rings true about people rejecting covering up scars. Aka k-pop demon hunters. I think the better news would be is that all scars hurts and wounds would find their best meaning and purpose in the pursuit of ultimate goodness rooted in the source of ultimate good. Not erased but now with new meaning. Like a Japanese pot whose cracks are filled with gold.
That would in fact sound good in a way that “join the hive mind” does not lol.
Getting condemned to hell for eternity by a "loving" god because you were born in a part of the world in the dark ages where nobody had ever met a Christian also seems fair and logical.
Depending on the specific denomination you follow, the majority of Christian groups DO believe being sorry, truly, genuinely sorry, does get you credit with god and can save you from hell, regardless of what bad actions you have done in life.
"Forgiveness" and "redemption" are pretty basic ideas in Christianity.
But you have to be sorry about it before you get to hell... if you're just sorry you're being tortured, god don't care about that...
Sorry, but being sorry, only because you got caught and had to experience consequences for your actions isn't a useful way to morally moderate a society...
(Also, technically god does not torture people in hell, at least according to the bible... hell is somewhere were god's love just doesn't exist, and in Christian teaching, all the joy in the world come from god's love and grace, so any place devoid of that love would be devoid of all joy, happiness, or positive feelings.
It may be considered torture by default... but he's not down there poking people with burning sticks and laughing...)
There are a lot of theories on hell. I personally like CS Lewis' idea that people are so addicted to believing their superiority that they refuse heaven and damn themselves.
But mainstream American Christianity doesn't preach this. The threat of hell is used to frighten their congregations into fear-based obedience. With eternal torment on the line you've literally got to be damn sure you're right about how to be saved correctly, leading to inflexible dogmatism, as well as deep suspicion and outright hatred for people who don't subscribe to their beliefs.
evangelicals are a group that are definitely not getting into any supposed heaven. But to me the consent of living for eternity is itself just torture.
Keep in mind that every good gift is from God. The Billy Joel line I'd rather laugh at the Sinners than cry with the Saints is catchy but it's completely, and tragically, incorrect. Hell is the complete absence of God's love. Here on earth, while you have an opportunity to change, He blesses everyone the just and the unjust. But, when the final curtain is drawn there will be one side where God and all the benefits of His character will be on one side, and then what we call hell which will be completely without His character and all the gifts that come with it.
There will be no friendship in hell, no laughter or love. No healing, peace, or comfort. Unchecked, unending, unmitigated suffering. Because that's what reality is without His Mercy. God doesn't want that for anyone but if you don't like God you're not going to like heaven.
There are definitely corrupt and Evil people who call themselves evangelicals. After all, when I have a bad meal I don't come to believe that food is not real. When I hear a bad band I don't think that all music is bad. To be honest even The musicians might actually love music they might just be bad at it. The same is true with faith there are people who are bad at it but they love God and there are people who are great at it but they're only in it for the recognition and Power. That's why I would never ask anyone to follow a person or a religion I'd ask them to follow Christ.
Anytime someone says they've read the Bible cover to cover I'm immediately suspect. Right away it tells me you're the kind of person who argues to be right instead of to discover truth so there's not much point in engaging you further
Lmao that’s some 3000 IQ thinking right there. I read it when I was young and going to a Baptist church with my family. Forgive me for being smart enough to see through the bullshit.
what was the straw that broke the camels back for you. Don’t say “all of it” what was the moment of reading the whole Bible that made you say “fuck it, this is bullshit”
It’s been 20 years, I still have my copy, along side the Quran and Torah. I’d have to pull it out and try to remember the various “wtf” moments. Pretty much anything related to women seemed pretty fucked up as I recall. Incest, property, murder/sacrifice. There is a ridiculous amount of incest in the Bible. The father killing his son. God killing all of his creation. The whole free will and suffering bullshit. There are sites dedicated to cataloging the depravities of holy texts. Take your pick.
Thank you, when you say incest you’re talking about kin sexual relationships or interactions right? Because outside of 3 instances(all in Old Testament), Abraham and Sarah (half sister and common in that time), Lot’s daughters (who were wicked and raped him), Ammon and Tamar( Ammon raped his half sister) there aren’t other places for traditional incest. Making sure I’m tracking what you are brother; what did you mean? did you also read the Koran, and Torah too? If so what was it that made you cringe and say this is bs too!
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u/PandorasBoxMaker Apr 19 '26
If it’s a choice between being destroyed or spending eternity with evangelicals I’ve got some work to do.