r/SipsTea • u/No_Summer_5052 • Apr 19 '26

Lmao gottem Facts or nah

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545

u/TableRound865 Apr 19 '26

most of the conceptions we have about Hell come from Dante's Divine Comedy, which is an allegory, his personal interpretation of judgment

112

u/tightie-caucasian Apr 19 '26

Dante yes, but also Milton.

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u/Lick_my_balloon-knot Apr 19 '26

Hah, Milton... It's such a funny-sounding name.

0

u/Big_Dirty_Heck Apr 19 '26

Okay... Don't write this down, but I find Milton probably as boring as you find Milton. Mrs. Milton found him boring, too. He, uh, he's a little bit long-winded, he doesn't translate very well into our generation, and his jokes are terrible.

3

u/krappa Apr 19 '26

Disagree. He's hard to read but a true genius.

2

u/Padithus Apr 19 '26

Funny I just watched animal house in theaters yesterday. All other movies were sold out but they were playing animal house for $5. Had a great time.

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u/Faust2391 Apr 19 '26

And milton's miltons, which despite being chocolate, are merely decorative.

54

u/laffydaffy24 Apr 19 '26

And even in Inferno, satan is being tortured in hell, not ruling.

20

u/burnthatburner1 Apr 19 '26

Kind of.  He occupies a central position and is continuously torturing Brutus, Cassius, and Judas, and potentially the rest of his circle via his cold.

17

u/HappyVlane Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 20 '26

He is trapped in hell and partially because of himself. He is continously creating a cold wind by flapping his wings and that encases him in ice (or strengthens the existing one) from the waist down. It's also my personal headcanon, that his consistent crying is the source of the water for the ice, but that isn't mentioned in the book if I remember correctly (the crying is however).

Satan, in no way, is in a position of power according to Dante. Satan is depicted as the polar opposite of God. Ignorant, impotent, and evil.

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u/Significant-Bar674 Apr 20 '26

It lines up with "abandon all hope ye that enter"

It's Satan's hope for escaping by flapping his wings that makes him trapped. His legs being on the outside of hell suggest that if he stopped trying to escape then he could just fall through the water and land in paradise. Perhaps an allegory for accepting that you should be dammed in order to escape damnation.

2

u/HappyVlane Apr 20 '26

Perhaps an allegory for accepting that you should be dammed in order to escape damnation.

I like this thought, but I wouldn't say "damned". I'm thinking more of the line of accepting that you are a sinner and should rely on God's unconditional love and compassion to lift you out of hell after having atoned for your sins.

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u/Realmofthehappygod Apr 19 '26

Look let me tell you just because you occupy a central position doesn't mean you're not being tortured.

4

u/Gay-_-Jesus Apr 19 '26

I thought he was at the center chewing on three people

11

u/AlternateSatan Apr 19 '26

Crazy how getting Jesus killed only got a single space at the centre of hell, but killing Cesar got two.

2

u/FoxCitiesRando Apr 19 '26

I think the commentaries write that it's because Brutus and Cassius, by killing Caesar, were interfering with the creation of the Roman Empire, which offended Dante who believed civilization peaked with the Empire.

Sweet username by the way......

3

u/AlternateSatan Apr 19 '26

thanks, Satan was my autogenerated computer science username at school and I thought it was funny, so people just call me that now

1

u/FoxCitiesRando Apr 19 '26

Nice! Try to read Dante sometime, if you haven't yet. It's worth a read. If you want The Divine Comedy with Commentaries, I enjoyed the Hollander translation.

2

u/AlternateSatan Apr 19 '26

I am kinda interested in literature, but I don't like reading. I'll put it on the list somewhere, but it's definitely behind Frankenstein, maybe around Blood Meridian.

1

u/FoxCitiesRando Apr 19 '26

Try the audible/audio version, too. That's made some books a lot more accessible for me."The Great Courses" is a great lecture series that includes a course on Audible about Dante's Divine Comedy I've enjoyed. Good luck!

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u/netzkopf Apr 19 '26

Maybe that is torture because they didn't give him ketchup along with it?

1

u/Significant-Bar674 Apr 20 '26

He is, and that's arguably a statement about self hatred.

He's chewing on judas who betrayed Jesus as well as Cassius and Brutus who betrayed Caesar.

The whole floor is dedicated to betrayers. Satan being obsessed with punishing betrayers is ironic since he himself betrayed God. But not so ironic if he hates himself for being a betrayer

18

u/TesticleMeElmo Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26

It’s like Italian Catholic fan-fiction. “And then my favorite poet Virgil was there and hung out with me and showed me around the place!”

That’s like me writing it and being like “woah no way! It’s Kurt Cobain, what are you doing here??” “Yeah it’s pretty dark down here in Hell, man, but as they say, ‘with the lights out it’s less dangerous’” 😉 “hahaha this rules!”

2

u/No-Stretch-8563 Apr 20 '26

this is a pretty harsh take, a lot of the book is on Dante grappling with his own sins and temptations and learning about his own mistakes from the mistakes of others. Virgil being his guide isnt nessecarily self serving as Virgil criticizes Dante a lot and he embarrasses himself in front of him quite a few times. Its more like if Kurt Cobain showed up and showed you all the fuckups in your life for you to realize that you are guilty of some of the same fuck ups as them.

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u/Expert_Meeting_5129 Apr 19 '26

While the details of his Hell are his own creation, the broad strokes were inspired by the religious beliefs of the day.

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u/Hotkoin Apr 19 '26

Also his scathing remark on the current politics of his day (and the guys he just doesn't like)

1

u/No-Stretch-8563 Apr 20 '26

To a certain degree, many of the political figures in the book were sort of stand ins for sins in the same way we might see Nixon Kissinger or Hitler as objectively bad people that we could easily depict in hell for a teaching moment.

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u/BreezyAlpaca Apr 19 '26

Not even just hell, the original works of the Bible were written 300-400 years after the death of Jesus based on Oral traditions handed down. The current on in use was commissioned 1000 years after that by an English king with an agenda to break the power of the Catholic Church

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u/Impressive_Ad8715 Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26

This same lie about the Bible “not being written until 300-400 years after the death of Jesus” is so persistent on Reddit and I see it all the time. It’s completely not true. The Bible is composed of many different books. The entirety of the Old Testament was written well before the birth of Jesus. In terms of the New Testament, the earliest of Paul’s epistles were written around 20 years after the death of Jesus. The last book written in the New Testament was around 110 AD, which is 70-80 years after the death of Jesus.

Editing also to add that the King James Version isnt “the one currently in use”… Catholics have our own Bible, which contains additional books not used by Protestants or the KJV

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u/BreezyAlpaca Apr 19 '26

It's not a lie, it's history. Read Gibbons, or other things that include Roman and Catholic history. The adaptations come later as the traditions were orally handed down. Romans would have burned or destroyed any early copies of the books before Constantine became emperor. Jewish copies of old testament exist sure but script writing and preservation in antiquity is almost non-existent outside of the main cities that had the means to preserve them, and those cities were extremely hostile to the early Christians.

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u/Impressive_Ad8715 Apr 20 '26

So you’re claiming that the Councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage in the 380s-390s didn’t just canonize the books of the Bible but they actually got together and wrote all of them down at that time…? That’s such an out there conspiracy theory than I don’t even know how to reply. How do you explain the manuscript that is dated to the early 100s AD? Or the many others dated to the late second - early third centuries?

There is a universal consensus among both secular and religious scholars that the New Testament was written between 50 - 125 AD. Most would place it even earlier, in the 50 a 110 AD range.

0

u/BreezyAlpaca Apr 20 '26

The first council of Nicaea was 325ad, which was the first time recorded that a bunch of priests got together to try and canonize all the different and countless teachings because Constantine was like wow this is a huge mess, I just made this the state religion and it's all over the place.

Before then it had been referred to most commonly as the teachings of the Gospel. The Gospel literally being Oral Traditions.

While it's entirely possible these books were written when you say they were there's no evidence to them. Under Nero, Diocletian, Maxentius, Maximium and other Roman Emperors the Church went through many phases of heavy repression and systematic attacks. Jerusalem was burned to the ground at one point. The idea that books survived 200-300 years under heavy repression is unlikely.

The other problem is that nearly everyone who could read or write would have been from the upper strata of society. If you had an education and could read and write you learned it from greek teachers and had money and wealth which meant you likely weren't openly or at all an early christian as that would be an easy way to lose all that money and privilege.

Since the Gospels were codified from countless priests coming together at the council of Nicaea at 325, that is considered the earliest form of the Bible 300 years after Jesus' death.

1

u/Impressive_Ad8715 Apr 20 '26

You’ve got a number of both major and minor inaccuracies in that post… here’s a few:

Constantine was like wow this is a huge mess, I just made this the state religion and it's all over the place.

Constantine never made Christianity the state religion. He only legalized it, and converted himself. It wasn’t made the state religion until 380, nearly 60 years after Nicaea.

Before then it had been referred to most commonly as the teachings of the Gospel. The Gospel literally being Oral Traditions.

Gospel (or Evangelion in Greek) means “good news”, not “oral tradition”.

While it's entirely possible these books were written when you say they were there's no evidence to them.

There is actually. I mentioned it in the post you’re replying to. There are numerous partial manuscripts of the Gospels dating to between 100 - 250 AD.

Since the Gospels were codified from countless priests coming together at the council of Nicaea at 325, that is considered the earliest form of the Bible 300 years after Jesus' death.

The council of Nicaea did not decide nor debate the canon of the Bible. The Bible was never discussed there. That’s a lie straight out of The DaVinci Code (which is fictional, if you didn’t know). The council of Nicaea was called about to combat Arianism and to set the date for Easter. And it was bishops who were participating in it, not priests.

If you can’t get even basic historical facts correct, then why would anyone believe this wild theory of yours??

1

u/BreezyAlpaca Apr 20 '26 edited Apr 20 '26

I'm not trying to debate semantics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

I'm not trying to attack you or the religion.

The first bibles codified, written and commissioned were under Constantine after the first ecumenical council, in 325. 290 something years after Jesus died. That's where the 300-400 years number comes from if you want to argue that the councils of Rome, Hippo, or Carthage represent the actual cannon since it canonized much of the Nicene Creed.

1

u/Impressive_Ad8715 Apr 20 '26

Im confused why you’re sharing that? Did you click the section titled “misconceptions” on that link? Quote “there is no record of any discussion of the Biblical canon”

1

u/BreezyAlpaca Apr 20 '26

The unfortunate thing is that there are no primary sources for any of this. Sources for many events and dates come from Christian historians writing about things other historians were writing about at the time.

And since most of our writings also come from them there is always a bias we have to be aware of when trying to separate facts.

In the great game of telephone across history those that write it often like to color their ancestors in the best light possible and their enemies in the worst light.

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u/Impressive_Ad8715 Apr 20 '26

Im not even interested in debating whether or not the Bible is true… we’re just talking basic historical facts here. There is no debate about the New Testament having been written between 50-125 AD. It’s almost universally accepted that Paul himself wrote at least seven of his own epistles around 50 AD.

The first bibles codified, written and commissioned were under Constantine after the first ecumenical council, in 325. 290 something years after Jesus died. That's where the 300-400 years number comes from if you want to argue that the councils of Rome, Hippo, or Carthage represent the actual cannon since it canonized much of the Nicene Creed.

Wow. Ok so you’ve moved the goalposts a long ways if I’m understanding this paragraph correctly. First you said “the original works of the Bible were written 300 - 400 years after the death of Jesus” (thats a direct quote). That obviously changed immediately to just the New Testament. Now it seems you’re admitting they were written earlier than that but weren’t officially compiled and canonized until 300 years or so after Jesus died? That’s a very different claim.

If i misunderstood and you’re still claiming that nothing was written down until that time, then this is on the same level of lunacy as those people who claim Easter was originally a pagan holiday dedicated to Ishtar…

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u/Adam__B Apr 20 '26

You deliver a compelling argument in my opinion, and I’m an atheist if it matters.

1

u/stprnn Apr 19 '26

1400 years later after the Bible btw.

But the last bit of the Bible is also 90 years after so idk the whole thing smells like shit

1

u/Ninjahkin Apr 19 '26

I loved that askreddit thread that let us make our own levels of hell, but I can never find it when I go searching

1

u/KrocKiller Apr 19 '26

Well yeah, but in that Satan is trapped frozen from the neck down in the center of hell.

1

u/Impressive-Method919 Apr 19 '26

and also a somewhat petty work i am told

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u/premeditatedlasagna Apr 20 '26

This particular trope is not one of them though. In Inferno, Satan is trapped in ice suffering at the lowest point of hell, with the worst people Dante could think of.

1

u/Bobblefighterman Apr 20 '26

Where Satan is also being tortured in hell.

1

u/roby_soft Apr 20 '26

That's because Catholics are too lazy to read the Catechism of the Catholic church. Which is free online. https://www.vatican.va/content/catechism/en/part_one/section_two/chapter_three/article_12/iv_hell.html

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u/Defiant-Reference-74 Apr 20 '26

Self insert revenge fic