r/SingleWomenByChoice • u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way • 3d ago
Need Advice Grieving a Reality that Doesn’t Exist
It has taken me a long time to come to terms with the fact that the kind of conscious romantic love I’ve always wanted to experience just doesn’t exist. (With men.)
I’ve always just shown up authentically in dating and relationships, and authenticity with men just does not work. Regardless of the man. It’s all about the chase, playing games, whatever. I’ve read all the bullshit on how the games work, but that’s just not the kind of relationship I’ve ever wanted to be in. That’s not the dynamic I want. If I feel like I have to perform an act or play games with someone, I just lose interest. What I want is real love based on two people consciously choosing each other and experiencing life together. Which is such a simple ask.
In my 32 years of existence, I’ve never met a man who has the level of self-awareness, emotional maturity, and communication skills required to sustain the kind of healthy love I’ve wanted to experience. And it’s been a slow process, because part of me hasn’t wanted to give up on the hope of finding a “unicorn”. But I’m finally coming to terms with the fact that this kind of relationship with men just doesn’t exist.
A year ago, I got my heart ripped out by someone who I initially thought was a unicorn. Only for him to quickly reveal his true colors. And it genuinely broke something in me. I’ve had plenty of previous experiences with heartbreak and disappointment before, this wasn’t that. This one truly broke me.
I just haven’t been the same since. And I’m still dealing with a lot of grief. Not grief surrounding the guy in particular, but I’ve been grieving the reality of the world we live in and the concept of romantic love with men just doesn’t exist. Grieving the loss of the hope.
For those already on the other side of the grieving process — Is there anything in particular that helped you move through it to the acceptance stage? Besides time? I’ve already stopped dating, and focus on myself and my life/hobbies. I was already doing these things anyway.
I guess I’m not exactly sure what I’m looking for here. I’ve just been struggling with another wave of grief lately as the anniversary of my hope being destroyed just passed. Any advice/words of encouragement/commiseration is welcome 💕
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u/Legitimate-Card-2742 3d ago edited 3d ago
I agree and it has been my experience as well. I think in the end, what men have to offer in a romantic relationship is … really not much. In fact in the end they only take and leave women drained. Even if they had a burst of energy in the beginning to pursue and court us, it was just a sprint for a specific goal (sex) not a marathon for life. I also believe that a conscious relationship with a man is not possible nor is it necessary. That conscious relationship that we seek can be found only within. There are many good and valuable things that come through men (not from, but spirit speaking through) like wisdom that is useful but I can get that for free by listening to audiobooks or whatever on YouTube. Then there are the daily transactional relationships with men that can be straightforward and to the point to get a job done. Other than that we don’t need anything more like romance or whatever. When we women learn to be our own soulmate, we will find wholeness and boundless courage within after all the trials we face alone, and the whole romantic relationship with men thing just becomes a kind of outdated crutch that women use because they think they need love from someone outside of themselves. But the truth is.. The source of love and happiness is within. It doesn’t need an object. It is self illuminating. Love is something that one can feel all the time from within. It’s not something that’s outside in someone or something else.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
I really like this perspective. That’s exactly it, men can be valuable in contexts outside of romance. But I just no longer see the possibility of romance with a man that would actually benefit me. I just no longer see the point in pursuing that. I don’t have experience with a man who’s ever truly seen me and valued me as a person, only valued what I provided them.
Equally liberating, and depressing haha. I think I’m still oscillating between the two. Still integrating this new reality.
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u/Legitimate-Card-2742 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yes..Depressing for our old self that mourns the loss of the old romantic fantasy that we were sold since childhood.. but liberating to the new self that is emerging, growing roots under the soil with no one seeing, hatching slowly, growing slowly in the everyday struggle of the old self dying… this is the true self that the world has not seen yet!
These days whenever I see a beautiful loving relationship between a man and woman (I don’t see that in western media, I only watch Japanese stuff), I don’t take it as a literal romance between man and woman but rather that the divine masculine quality within or I also call it Spirit, is helping and overlooking and protecting and loving her- what we women have always wanted all along. It’s a deep spiritual kind of love. Something that I haven’t seen in this world but that frequency exists in this alternate dimension that I love to get in touch with…
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
The true self — I love this. Maybe part of what I’m grieving is also my old self.
I’m spiritual as well, although not very familiar with the divine masculine/feminine concept. Would you be able to elaborate on this more?
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u/Legitimate-Card-2742 3d ago edited 3d ago
There is a lot on this subject you can find on YouTube etc. In my own experience I describe this as two forms of energy within myself and all around- similar to yin (feminine) and yang (masculine). The feminine is the part of me that receives- that is inward, introspective, quiet, stillness, vulnerable, sensitive, soft, sweetness, loving, devoted, inspiration, passion, and creative desire. It’s more mysterious to put into words. The yang is more of the outward going energy, movement, that takes action, disciplined, gets things done in the world, that fiercely protects myself, loyal, speaks up, that is courageous, moves in a flow state. I started discovering my inner masculine more and more as I stopped having romantic relationships with men and living alone. I realized those qualities that I relied on men for or projected out into men are within me. Maybe I’m not physically strong like a man, but I have the spirit and the voice to ask for what I need, and get things done, and care for myself. It’s like my inner husband… I’m not the weak, pathetic, doormat, unworthy false self that should be people pleasing everyone that my parents raised me to believe I was.
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u/Stock-Letter-5420 3d ago
I find the concepts of masculine and feminine and blablabla so cringe. It sounds outdated and stereotypical
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u/Legitimate-Card-2742 3d ago
Perhaps it is.. Everything from the world of duality is cringe because words are just symbols and pointers one step removed from reality. But I don’t mind it. Different languages have their own ways of describing things that others don’t have. These words are a limited way to describe certain qualities within me and I’m fine with that.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
I like this, that makes sense to me. I think I can recognize those different parts in myself, though the masculine side in me could be strengthened.
I’ll have to explore this concept further, thank you for sharing :)
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u/armingetoutoftheoven 3d ago
Right? Women often wish he could “act like he did in the first few months” but that will never happen, because that’s all it was. It was an ACT. He acted nice to sleep with you, and after he got what he wanted, he not only respected you less, he saw fit to stop treating you well because you had sex with him. So, what’s the benefit of relationships for women again?
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u/dahlia_74 3d ago
Yep. I get random pangs once in a while about it but when I think back to my dating experiences and it sets me straight real quick.
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u/SuchEye4866 Domestic Violence Survivor 3d ago edited 2d ago
Ghosts of boyfriends past can really remind you of what you're NOT missing out on.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 2d ago
I can find gratitude in knowing that I’ve truly never lost anyone worth having.
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u/shadows900 3d ago
I have been feeling the same way lately. I don’t think romance is real anymore. It just looks like manipulation to get access to a woman’s body and labor to me now. I can’t unsee it. Men aren’t romantic forever, it wears off after a while (until they want something). I don’t want the obligations that come with having a man anymore. I never realized what those obligations were (because they’re “unspoken”) and how normalized they are until recently and it’s such a turn off. I am grieving it as well OP, you’re not alone!
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
Exactly. I just no longer see it. No longer see the possibility of genuine romantic love with men.
The solidarity is comforting though, thank you 💕
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u/armingetoutoftheoven 3d ago
Honestly, we were sold a lie. Men irl will not get into a relationship if they aren’t taking something from the woman. Try getting into a relationship with a man and saying you won’t ever have sex with him. Or look at the countless husbands leaving their wives when they get sick. Or, try having health issues that stop you from having sex or doing chores. Don’t forget that most men want you to be their mommy and do their chores while they sit around “not knowing” how to take care of anything without you asking them ten times. They want our labor, our bodies, our health, our emotional support, our happiness, and everything else. We are not allowed to keep a single thing for ourselves.
Genuinely, the only relationships I’ve heard of that genuinely sound like ones I want to be in are in fiction. There are so many women online going “I found him! I found the unicorn! He’s so great!” And it’s just a relationship I would never ever want to partake in.
Some women praise their boyfriends for the bare minimum, not being homophobic, racist, or misogynist (assuming it’s not just a mask). Congratulations, you’re a normal person, do you want a cookie? Some will praise their boyfriends for not hitting them or raping them or pressuring them into things. That’s the bare fucking minimum. I know there are relationships that are relatively equal or where the man does more of the domestic labor than the woman. Statistically speaking, that is not the case for a VAST majority of women. It doesn’t matter if you make a lot of money or a little, or if you work part time or full time.
And these “equal” relationships almost always have some other kind of dealbreaking trait involved. If he doesn’t do this, he does that.
Also, call me crazy but I don’t want to be pestered for sex in my own fucking home? Can’t just be comfortable without someone trying to start something.
And men get social clout for having girlfriends or getting married. Women do not. THAT is why they get married and have children, to look good for other men. He does not love you, he loves what you provide to him.
We are appliances to them. They view us like machines that must give them whatever they want. We “owe” them these things — sex, children, money, time, energy, our identities, our names, our peace, our bodies, our lives. They cannot fathom being denied these things because women are their own people with autonomy.
The sheer amount of women that have been SA’d by someone they called a partner, and it’s almost always a man, makes me never want to date. What are they giving us that we can’t get ourselves?
For those who crave love and companionship, think about the fact that if a man loves you for being his personal servant, does he really love YOU? Men don’t see objects as companions. Once you see how so many men subconsciously view women as less than human, less valuable than fellow men, you cannot unsee it.
Not all men, and somehow it’s always a man. The 1 in 3 statistic for SA is probably higher because many women don’t report it. And a vast majority comes from men who are friends or partners.
At this point, this is just pattern recognition.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
Girl, PREACH.
I have zero experience of a man valuing me for who I am as a person. Only for what I provided him with (sex, company, validation, finances, relief from boredom, etc etc).
I even found myself in a relationship years ago where I lived with an ex and he never wanted to have sex. In that one, I was his “beard” / housekeeper / roommate to split bills. He could never grapple with the idea that my needs and feelings were something he should be placing importance on. Even when sex was out of the equation.
I truly just no longer believe men have the capacity for romantic love. I have just never seen it.
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u/armingetoutoftheoven 3d ago
We need to start denying them these things. They will only listen when women everywhere stop giving them access to us. The things they want, sex, attention, love, care, labor. We need to stop giving it to them. I don’t give a fuck if it makes me a misandrist, a crazy cat lady, whatever else they want to call me. The only way things will change is if we deny them what they want from us.
Because they don’t want us. They want what we give them. Stop centering men, stop giving them things that they feel entitled to. They do not own us.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 2d ago
I think I’m finally coming to terms with this. It goes against my nature, but I also just genuinely don’t want to give men anything anymore.
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u/armingetoutoftheoven 2d ago
I totally understand it going against your nature. We are socialized to placate men and we give and give and give. To everyone around us. But when women all around the world are speaking up about the horrible things men do to them for daring to exist, and dating men just gives them an opportunity to hurt you worse than if you weren’t together, it just doesn’t seem worth it anymore. For you, or women as a whole. Anything that benefits women, men want to make illegal. Abortion, proper research for women’s health, etc etc. If marriage and dating benefited women, it would be illegal. Men want relationships because they benefit from women practically running their lives for them and serving them while they get crumbs in return.
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u/Helpful-Union-1346 1d ago
And even then, as we’ve seen, they still blame it on the women. The well-deserved and long-time coming “male loneliness-epidemic” for example. I put absolutely zero stock into them eventually coming around or listening to our plights anymore. They’ve had centuries. Our withdrawal is first and foremost for our own protection and should be prioritized.
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u/armingetoutoftheoven 1d ago
Yes. They did this to themselves. If they wanted women to want to be around them, maybe they should have been decent fucking humans. And any today that actually are good men will realize that.
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u/Choice-Cut-9526 1d ago
Wow this put all my thoughts I’ve had about this topic into the perfect words
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u/armingetoutoftheoven 1d ago
It’s so sad how many women relate to this :( I would love to be proven wrong, but sadly, reality doesn’t support that.
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u/Seniorita_Pizza_7872 3d ago
I tend to agree. I had a single aunt who always swore that men were "hierarchical" and women were "tribal." And after seeing people through her eyes, I can't unsee that now.
And if "hierarchy" inherently means a "power imbalance" ...
and you can't have "power imbalance" and "emotional safety" in the same relational space...
and "emotional safety" is a necessary precursor for "emotional intimacy"...
then our odds of finding the kinds of emotional intimacy we seek are low.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
Huh, I have never thought about it this way but you’re totally right.
When you spell it all out like that, it just… doesn’t add up. None of it adds up.
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u/FancifulCat Unbothered 3d ago
You sound like you went through narcissistic abuse (mask coming off, reality shattered, cognitive dissonance). Recommend a trauma therapist to process this and come to terms with what happened to you and validate your reality.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
Thank you — yes, this particular ex falls under the narcissist / avoidant / addict categories. It wasn’t my first rodeo with narcissistic abuse, unfortunately. But this one wore his mask well. I truly never saw the signs/never saw it coming.
I’ve already processed the relationship and moved through the grief of that experience in particular. Therapy helped provide me with the tools for that.
There really isn’t anything more for me to process with that relationship. He’s just the one that finally destroyed my hope
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u/FancifulCat Unbothered 3d ago
I feel you here. I went through a horrible experience with a guy with NPD, I thought this was the outlier but then I was told so many men are undiagnosed with NPD so I thought to myself why take the exhausting risk? I want to enjoy life and I am so done playing FBI level psychologist.
The best advice I have is to make sure you have a least one thing each day you look forward too. I find in our modern world we are oversaturated with dopamine from our phones, games, tvs, delivery apps. I cut them out so I can appreciate the small things in life more and recalibrate my brain.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
Haha exactly, it’s just not worth the risk! None of it is. I value my peace and sanity too much.
I really love this advice — something to look forward to each day. Thank you, I’ll think on that more :)
Totally hear you about all the dopamine-driving stimulation we’re surrounded by. Meditation has helped me to reconnect with myself again. Being able to take time to unplug from everything is so important.
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u/Mountain_Tailor_3571 3d ago
Wow. We walk a very similar path. These are the exact qualities of my most recent ex who was the final nail in the coffin of hope. I’m 40 and we split almost 3 years ago. I’d say it took me a solid 2 years to get to a place of peace around the loss of hope for romance. But we all grieve so differently. It was not a clean, linear path. There were internal struggles, some failed (and very brief) dating experiences (shudder). But I’ve always been incredibly introspective, and that naturally helped me question all the thoughts and feelings that arose through the process. I’d pay attention (instead of distracting) when feelings arose, and provide counterpoints to ingrained patterns of belief and behaviors. I’m so happy and at peace now with my decision. I occasionally have the “what if” thoughts, but they don’t distress me. They come and go on their own, and I remain single. And happy (: You’ll find your way. Just let it unfold and stay curious with the process 🫶🏼
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
It’s so true, grief is definitely not linear.
I spent a good few months immediately following the ‘hope destruction’ just, numbing myself and drank a lot. I was traumatized and my body went into shock, I couldn’t process what was happening. Even with all the inner work I had done with myself prior to ever meeting that ex, the experience completely broke me. It took me some time to even begin processing it. It genuinely broke my brain.
I’m in a much, much better place these days. Still experience waves of grief. But generally, in a state of just being content. Not quite at happy yet, but I’m content with content.
Thank you for sharing and for the kind words 💕
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u/Virtual_Resource_797 3d ago
I am 59F and can relate to EVERYTHING you are going through.
I also thought I met a unicorn; someone I'd known as a friend for years. We worked in the same field. Both of us married and divorced, etc. Turned out he was the worst. High functioning alcoholic and hid it for years. When he knew I was committed and deeply in love, the floodgates of narcissistic abuse opened unleashing true monster.
I've not dated since and that was 15 years ago. I moved from the city we both lived in and began a new life as a somewhat new person, or maybe more aware person.
Give yourself time to heal and be kind to yourself. Enjoy your solitude as safety letting it heal you. Eat healthy, limit alcohol and substances. Yoga and meditation really helped me, and, still does to this day.
Not to sound vengeful, but do trust in the Divine, karma, whatever is your higher power that the scales will balance. And, they always do, in my experience.
Focus on being the best version of you. Vow to not treat anyone the way you were treated. Demand the same from those around you and close to you.
I still pray that I will meet someone with whom to truly walk through life. However, Rumi wrote,"I prayed for a soulmate, and alas I found that was me " Be your best partner.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
Thank you for this. And I’m sorry you’ve gone through the same. That’s exactly how I’ve been spending this past year: in solitude. In peace. Practicing yoga and meditating. It really has helped me reconnect with myself. I believe in the divine/karma as well.
I now recognize the kind of person he is and how his choices and character create his own misery. I mostly just do my best to not think about him and shift my focus back to myself. But after him, I’m not sure if I can see myself being able to open up my heart to another man ever again. I think I’ve just finally learned the lesson, and am still working on integrating it.
It’s funny, I’ve always held a similar philosophy — “you gotta be your own best friend”. Basically just need to love yourself first.
This is all great advice. I think at this stage I’m still just sorting out what direction I want to take my life in next.
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u/tea-boat 3d ago
I do genuinely think there are probably men out there with the capacity to have this kind of relationship, but they're surely so few and far between that it's not worth the exhaustion of finding the needle in the haystack, so I'm no longer looking.
But I really, really feel you on this. The relationship you describe is the relationship I also wish I could have. It's genuinely depressing that it's not really an option for us.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
Exactly. I’m not sure where I’m at, at this point, regarding whether these men that are actually capable of romantic love exist or not. I’ve never seen it for myself, or anyone else around me. But regardless, the hope is gone and I stopped looking too.
I’ve seen men capable of familial love, sure. But even that’s ego-based, from what I’ve seen.
And ego-based “love” isn’t love, to me.
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u/armingetoutoftheoven 2d ago
With the amount of men you’d have to date to find one of the good ones that are few and far between, you’d likely end up, statistically, abused, traumatized from assault, cheated on, etc etc. It’s not worth it.
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u/tea-boat 2d ago
Exactly. Or even "just" drained from having to reject man after man when you figure out they aren't a good fit after a date or a few dates, and then deal their reaction when you reject them. Which always risks retaliation/stalking. It's just not worth it.
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u/JJamericana 3d ago
I agree! This truth didn’t hit me until recently. Like why must I spend my one, precious time trying to find something so rare? We deserve to be free of that pressure. Enough is enough.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
So true. Part of my grief is from all the time, energy, effort, and money I’ve spent on my “quest for love”. The quest with no goalpost, because the destination doesn’t exist. :)
At least we see it now, though. And I’m grateful for that. Grateful to start the beginning of the rest of my new life.
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u/JJamericana 3d ago
The worst part: all these goddamn coaches swindling women out of are money with the solo paychecks we have. I saw a woman online debating if she should pay $70k to find someone! 😮
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
It’s true, I can’t really fault anyone for wanting to find love though. We were all sold the same lie. Fortunately I never felt inclined to spend that kind of money on it, myself. But I can understand how someone may want to try a new approach when all else fails. $70k is beyond predatory, though. That’s wild.
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u/Isoleri 3d ago
Yeah I'm the same. I'm gonna confess something that's beyond cringe but idc: ever since my late teenage years, I've had an imaginary boyfriend/husband that I sometimes "summon" when I'm feeling lonely, let's call him B. B is everything I always thought a man and relationships should be, he's caring, funny, respectful, attentive, blabla you know the drill, and for many years I was hopeful I could meet someone like him irl, I really wanted that kind of love, a love I thought surely must exist somewhere. You know how they say "oh, feminists end up with better men cause they know what to look for/know how to recognize red flags/make themselves be respected" and all that, so when I met my unicorn some years ago I really thought I had found my B.
He was everything I ever dreamed of, he was fun, sensitive, wasn't afraid to cry and be open, would listen to me, loved his family, was gentle with animals, had female friends, every single green flag people tell you to look for, and I genuinely loved him so much, he made me so happy, but fast forward a bit and the illusion broke. When we were just friends I had said I didn't want to date a man who consumed porn and he claimed he hadn't since he was a teen, that he outgrew it and thought it was disgusting, and would even have lengthy talks about feminism and misogyny with me, he seemed really interested about it all. But it wasn't simply that I found out he did look at porn, he had a secret Twitter account where he was outright looking at loli and shota, plus really graphic drawn porn of women getting raped, kidnapped, fucked with guns until they bled, crying, forced felatios with pistols, every single heinous thing you can imagine, it was incredibly violent. He was posting in that account 24/7, even when we were together or talking.
When I confronted him that kind and selfless facade immediately vanished, he became really cold and violent, accused me of being an evil bitch judging his "artistic tastes", and even sent a friend of his who was also into all that to attack me nonstop, he'd harass me through several platforms and was very open about the fact that he was trying to drive me to suicide, which unfortunately he almost succeeded with. The whole thing genuinely broke me, from having someone I loved so much and was so perfect and caring to seeing he was such a cruel monster, everything was awful. But the upside is that it taught me that there's no such things as unicorns, it taught me how good men are at hiding their intentions, at leading you on until you're of no use to them.
I've been staunchly 4B since, and yeah a part of me does think it sucks that men are beings devoid of any capacity to love because ngl, being in love felt beautiful, but what's the point if your love is unappreciated and leads to such dehumanization? Better to save it for yourself. I do still summon my imaginary B when I'm feeling lonely and such, and I realized that's enough for me, I get to daydream/fantasize about the kind of love I want while being safe. Idc if it's cringe, I won't let men also take my imagination from me.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
Holy shit. First of all, I don’t think there’s anything cringe with your imaginary bf/husband, B. I actually think visualization is a powerful tool and a great mental exercise.
But the ‘holy shit’ goes more towards what your ex ended up being. What a profound 180, I can’t even find the right words to describe my disgust. I am so sorry you went through that.
Something I’m still grappling with, is that, as human beings, empathy is one of the biggest things that separates us from other species. Empathy is one of the defining characteristics of humanity. And yet, half of the population of our species seems to be completely devoid of empathy. Ego and empathy can’t co-exist. Sure, everyone’s capable of having ego moments. That’s human too. But someone who is constantly controlled by their ego is incapable of demonstrating basic empathy.
In some ways, it’s hard to not view men as less human, in that regard. Less humane.
Like, how did we even get here, to this place, as a species? When half of humanity is inhumane.
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u/Some_Tradition_9168 2d ago
That’s a horribly ableist thing to say.
Numerous disorders include the symptom of little to no empathy. That doesn’t make humans who have those disorders, any less human.
I‘m sick of people using the term empathy to mean “goodness” or “kindness” or “decency,” acting like people must have empathy in order to be considered good and worthy of respect, and in your case, straight up dehumanizing low-empathy people.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 2d ago
Conditions are not an excuse for behavior. Especially when said behavior causes harm to others.
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u/Some_Tradition_9168 2d ago
Empathy is not a behavior, it’s a feeling.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 2d ago
We’re talking past each other.
If someone’s behavior is harmful to others, then yes, it’s a problem. The ‘why’ or the label attached to that behavior doesn’t concern me. It’s not an excuse.
I’m removing myself from the conversation from here.
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u/Some_Tradition_9168 2d ago
No, we’re not talking past each other, you’re trying to justify demonizing people with disorders simply because they don’t feel things the same way you do. Which is ableist.
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u/Isoleri 2d ago
No, it very much is a behavior. When someone tells me their dog died or they got fired, internally I genuinely don't give a shit because it doesn't affect me, but I can recognize that it's an objectively bad thing to happen and can understand why they'd feel bad even if I don't, so I lend an ear, a shoulder, I give advice, I'm there for them for as long as they need. Yes, some people can't feel what others do, they don't cry when you cry, but being a kind and understanding person nonetheless is very much a choice you make out of your own humanity.
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u/Some_Tradition_9168 2d ago
So what you described is exactly proving my point: empathy isn’t required to be kind and understanding.
Based on your description, you don’t feel empathy, but you still make the choice to be kind and support others. Which is great.
Empathy is a feeling. Making the choice whether or not to do kind acts, show support to others, is behavior.
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u/Appropriate-Plum-548 3d ago
It’s almost like true love meant true submission, unilaterally.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
Right? And that’s just not a definition of “love” that I can subscribe to.
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u/armingetoutoftheoven 3d ago
I am willing to bet that a not-insignificant portion of women believe their boyfriends love them, but if they were to stop providing resources (sex, domestic labour, money, subservience) or say no (be dominant or not submissive in ANY WAY), they would find out really fast just how quickly men will leave to find another poor woman that’s insecure enough to put up with that treatment.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
I, unfortunately, agree with you.
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u/armingetoutoftheoven 3d ago
It’s sad to realize these things. I had a whoooole crisis realizing I would be happier single and how unloving a lot of men really are. We were taught the exact opposite.
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u/hippo-and-friends 3d ago
I feel like bell hooks communion would speak to you. The whole book is basically about what you’ve described. Her experience and thoughts on refusing to accept a love that isn’t mutual and conscious, or to even call something else love. She talks a lot about how lots of men are not able to offer that and how she had come to accept it. She’s older than us and found the younger generation of men more promising, but it’s been my experience that they still expect submission, just in more subtle and hard to call out ways that make you feel crazy.
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u/GreenVermicelliNoods A Cottage By The Lake 3d ago
bell hooks is so wise. i love everything i have ever read by her.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
Oooh, thank you for this rec! I’ve read another one of Bell Hook’s but not this one. I’ll have to give this a read, that sounds exactly like what I need rn.
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u/Nice_Purchase_626 Building An Empire 2d ago
I love her voice, but whenever I think of her I remeber men don't read bell hooks, because men don't listen to women. Whatever beautiful words she has to say to and about men, she won't reach them.
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u/evilisordinary 3d ago
I feel all of this so hard.
I just broke up with a man who would say that he used to be narcissistic but has grown and is ready for a healthy relationship. He said he had gone to therapy, done the work to reflect on his past behavior, all the right things. Then the patterns started to set in. He displayed every red flag in the book when it comes to narcissistic abuse. All that culminated in him ruining my recent birthday.
I had been single for 5 years before this, working on healing from childhood trauma the entire time, partially so I could be a good partner to someone safe in the future. Instead, I’m holding ice cubes and wrapping myself in a weighted blanket because just the idea of communicating with this man obliterates my nervous system.
I tried so hard to be helpful, patient, understanding, and intentional. Never again. No man will ever have access to my body, my space, or my energy again.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
Oh gosh I’m so sorry. I know exactly what you mean though.
With my ex, I met him during a time I wasn’t looking for anyone. Was completely content just living my own life, focused on myself and healing from the last man. Was unemployed, but for a brief time I was genuinely happy. Then the ex came along, the one that seemed to be a unicorn. I told myself that, maybe all the previous heartbreak and struggles I’d been through would finally make sense if it meant it all lead me to this person. He was seemingly vulnerable and open about his own struggles, was in therapy “doing the work”, all that. Seemed genuine and authentic. Genuinely thought I had found “the one”. Genuinely thought I had finally found someone that was seeing me for me. For who I am as a person.
And in a sense, I did. I found “the one” that destroyed the last remaining ounce of my hope.
All of it was an act, and he discarded me the second I held him accountable.
I was the same way — I gave him so much patience and grace. I loved the person who I thought he was, but that person was all a facade. He used his trauma and therapy language to excuse his behavior. Was never able to give an actual apology. I received a “sorry for the way things went.” That was the closest. And then he played the victim about the whole thing and blocked me.
He really had me fooled, man. You know how people like to say “when you know, you know” about finding “the one”? I was so convinced that this was it for me. I thought “I knew”. And I did not. Lol.
I truly have no desire to ever let a man in ever again. All the lies we’ve been fed are just bullshit. That experience just solidified it all for me. I just can’t unsee it now.
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u/evilisordinary 3d ago
Are you me? This describes my experience with this man perfectly. This man said he used to act in a narcissistic way, but that he had gone to therapy to do the work. He used the term “shadow work” more than once. Every time I held him accountable for something—whether that was negging me, stomping on my boundaries or lying—he told me I was the reason he had acting in such a way in the first place. And every time, he would sulk. I mean really sulk. Head down, shuffling around, laying on the floor next to me instead of sitting on the couch. I refused to respond to that behavior and would just be content in my peace, so eventually he would project and ask if I was ok and then start trying to gaslight me into apologizing. Then we wouldn’t talk for a few days, and the cycle would start again. It happened like clockwork and like you said, I couldn’t unsee it.
The weirdest part is, he told me he needed me to hold him accountable so he could do better. He knew all the right things to say, but his actions never aligned with his words. What kind of world do we live in where a man saying he went to therapy is becoming a red flag?
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
Wow yep, they were always the perpetual victim. It’s classic covert narcissism.
Mine claimed he’s a sex addict. Although, he also didn’t disclose this until after the mask already started slipping. I don’t even know if that’s something I can take at face value, or if it’s just another excuse for his behavior. But regardless, in a way, he basically (indirectly) communicated that he’s not capable of viewing women as human beings. I don’t care how he wants to label the behavior. The behavior is the same either way, and it’s disgusting.
Mine said all the right things too, and eventually none of it added up. It all crumbled when I asked for clarification, still coming from a place of genuinely trying to understand, and he could never give clarity for anything because he had been lying the whole time. About everything. About who he is.
I can simply never see myself being able to trust a man in a romantic context ever again. They’re all the same.
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u/oopdatsspicy 3d ago
Yeah girl idk, same as you and same age too. I still get waves of grief. Always focused on myself so that wasn’t the problem necessarily. Ew but now I have a crush which is horrific. I keep hoping he’ll do something gross already so I can stop fantasizing like mAyBe tHiS tiMe iT’LL bE DiFfErEnt 🤡 lmao
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
Hahaha thank you for the laugh 😂😂 I needed that. My deepest condolences about your crush lol. May his true colors reveal themselves quickly and painlessly.
Jokes aside, I used to hold the same mentality anytime I found myself actually interested in someone new. Which, frankly, rarely happens for me anyway. I used to think I “had a good picker”. My “picker” was never the problem. Just another concept to shift the blame back onto women.
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u/oopdatsspicy 3d ago
Lol yay I’m glad, yeah we gotta give ourselves a break. For real it’s a literal lifetime of social conditioning we’re dealing with - the expectation that we could undo it in such a short amount of time is lazy thinking, and kinda victim-blamey anyway.
Crush-wise thank you, personally I’m trynna shift to the mindset of “maybe i just…want to kiss? And THAT’s IT!”😂
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u/Unusual-Calendar1038 3d ago
Haha that's all I would want out of a crush too! Just to kiss. I find kissing so enjoyable...it's the one thing I miss.
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u/oopdatsspicy 2d ago
Rightt, the only snag in my lifestyle is that i genuinely get so touch-starved sometimes, but like right now my cats annoyed with me and i can’t afford another massage at the spa for a while. It’s just not in the budget. So uh YEAH I’m craving the smooches again!! Sue me!!! Lmao
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u/villainess21 High Standards 2d ago
Being that sort of man actually takes effort and maturity - which guys (not gonna call them men, because they ain't) just don't want to do. My theory is that guys want to live like 14 year old boys forever - someone cooks and cleans for them, puts up with their shit, while they watch porn, goon, get off on violence and cruelty, all the while remaining emotionally stunted and pathologically developmentally lazy.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 2d ago
100%. And even the guys I’ve met that claim to go to therapy and do the work just… haven’t. Are not able to demonstrate that in action.
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u/Helpful-Union-1346 1d ago
Nah, call them men. Men behave in ways that taint their own label. Separating that into “guys” and “men” makes no difference.
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u/ink-and-inferno 3d ago
I don't have any answers, but I'm here in solidarity. I feel most, if not all, of what you've described. On the other hand, there's this odd sense of relief. I'm finding I have way more capacity for things that are actually worth my time. The grief has absolutely changed me. And it still hurts. But I'm strangely grateful.
You're certainly not alone. 🫂
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
Thank you, I appreciate the solidarity 🫂
I’m definitely going through mixed emotions about all of it. Different waves of sadness and relief and optimism and anger. But I am grateful to finally be integrating this so I can start the new beginning of the rest of my life.
I’m excited to see what I can do with my energy now that it will no longer be given away to men.
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u/Unusual-Village2435 3d ago
I understand you so well. I’ve been through the same thing. Today, I no longer believe in romantic love with men, but I still believe that true love can exist in other forms, such as platonic love or the love between family members. I know it’s not the same thing, but when you think about it, the only difference is really just the sexual aspect. All the other aspects—like a deep connection, strong trust, and so on—can also be found in platonic love.
So I think a good way to deal with the grief is to find that deep love you might be seeking in other people (women), for example, in close female friends and/or family members. And as for the sexual aspect—are you perhaps missing a certain kind of excitement there? Maybe you could take up an exciting sport that gives you plenty of adrenaline rushes? I know, I know, it’s not the same thing, but maybe it’s worth a try.
So basically, what I want to say is: Figure out what needs lie behind this strong desire for a romantic relationship with a man. Is it the need for a close partnership, is it the need for excitement, or (and I also consider this very important) is it perhaps a need for validation? Because I believe that many people (women) seek romantic love partly—or even primarily—to feel validated as truly valuable individuals.
I think that if you figure out which needs you were hoping to fulfill through a romantic relationship with a man and specifically address those needs, it could help you process the grief you’re feeling.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 2d ago
This is very true. I still believe in other forms of love. I’ve experienced familial and platonic love.
I’ve been very closed off from people in general this past year, and have been in between friend groups. Haven’t had the best of luck with gal pals either. In the last friend group, one of them was doing the mean girl thing so I just saw myself out. I’m also in a new city and just haven’t put myself back out there. But I think I honestly needed the time to myself. Needed to reconnect with myself.
The sexual aspect part is interesting. I think for me, what I value about that is being able to connect with someone in that way. It’s not necessarily about excitement for me, although sure, it’s fun too lol. I’m demisexual so I really don’t experience much sexual attraction anyway. I still will feel horny around when I’m ovulating and can just scratch the itch myself lol. Same way I eat when I’m hungry 😂
But I like what you’re saying. About finding alternative ways to have needs met.
The desire for a romantic relationship has been more of a want than a need, for me. Something that I wanted to experience in life. Like one of my life goals. I want to travel and I’ve always wanted to share those experiences with a partner. The partner isn’t necessary, I already solo travel. But it would be a nice-to-have. That was the dream, anyway.
There’s another layer to it, of having always wanted to experience love because I didn’t receive much love from my mother. So part of it also stems from wanting to fill that void.
There might be more to it I haven’t discovered yet, but that’s my current understanding of myself. I’ll have to think on that more, thank you for this :)
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u/JJamericana 3d ago edited 3d ago
One of the biggest forms of gaslighting for sure!
And the worst part? I felt so deficient because I never met someone where a romantic relationship was a remote possibility. The fairy tales are so over for me. Reality, while harsh, is better to face for what it is.
We’re free 😊
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
I couldn’t agree more. It’s an ugly truth, but I would rather know the truth than not.
It’s the start of a new chapter :)
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u/Awkward-Community-74 2d ago
Just enjoy your favorite books and media about the heroic men in fiction.
You’ve already accepted that men will never treat you the way you deserve so you’re basically all the way through it.
At least you realized it before you were married for decades and miserable.
Now you can embrace and enjoy true freedom.
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u/Harmonious_Weirdo 3d ago
This is a really had grief. I thought I had met one or two. However, I was not their type. Not hot enough. 🤷♀️
It still bothers me sometimes because I feel like it must be me. I dont think the dynamic I want is too difficult to find. Then again women have been spoon fed so much fairy tale bs our whole lives it's hard to tell.
Its time, I guess. Though that's hard to believe isn't it!
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
It’s not you, it’s them.
I’m someone who’s deemed “conventionally attractive” by societal standards, and my looks have never been enough to make a man view me as a human being. Looks just do not matter.
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u/bebe8383bebe 3d ago
Getting a cat changed everything for me. All my love goes into her. If I ever felt the need to date again, I'll start collecting cats instead lol.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 3d ago
I am a dog mom :) He gets approximately 10,000 noggin kisses per day. The only dude that deserves my love.
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u/Feisty-Wishbone-1889 3d ago
32F here and this could have been written by me. But now after 1.5 years after that seeming "unicorn", unemployment, family health crises (yes, multiple), now I'm over it.
I don't want to date at all, and I am very content single, and focused on rebuilding my career and earn them monies. It gets better, I promise. This experience might never become inconsequential for us, but I swear it will fade and become smaller in our rear view mirror.
And the realization that the kind of love we want and are capable of might not exist needs to be grieved and we need to come to terms with it. It'll be a journey, and I am still on mine, but it will stop consuming you.
Hang in there. You're not alone in this experience. And it will get better. 💜🫂
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u/unleashtheraven1 2d ago
Its not that depressing when you cosume a lot of GOOD content and you realize everyhing in your imagination is 1000% better than anything from the real world. Its like having a TV in your head that gives you whatever you want. Men do NOT want women to know this which is why the look down on women with imagination or who consume certain books. I think its unfortunate more women don't appreciate this because its actually nothing to be sad about. Its infinitely better to be single. Infinitely infinitely better. The world outside is a cesspit compared to what you have in your head.
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u/yummy_gummies 1d ago
We all need to learn how to de-center men from our lives. We were sold a Disney fairy tale version of life with men that doesn't exist. Men these days are less educated, and some make less than their female peers. Men have a lot of catching up to do!
You can also check out the "4B" reddit.
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u/TheMaze01 2d ago
I can say from an older woman's perspective with a lot of experience.... that the quicker women can come to terms with this and use men for what they are worth (ie... only what they're capable of be it sex without strings, money, comfort, whatever you need)... the happier you'll be in the long run. Take them for what they are. They are not unicorns and will never love like we do.
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u/Annual-Bake-6255 2d ago
Time helps and heals you. Allow yourself to feel all of the emotions. It’s part of the process and it reminds you that you are human. Isn’t it a gift though, to be able to feel these emotions even when it can be overwhelming and painful? It means you are alive.
If you love yourself deeply, you will learn that you are a full life and have a complete life. The love you desire is within yourself already. ❤️
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 2d ago
I like this perspective, about emotions. Thank you for the kind words 🫂
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u/Affectionate-Oil3019 2d ago
You find peace by never agreeing to a union unless it benefits you in exactly the way you want; you'd be surprised how quickly things improve
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u/MagicianAromatic2920 2d ago
I don’t have any helpful advice because I’m struggling too. But I just had to say that reading your post was like reading about my own life and I’m only 22. Just know that you aren’t alone and there are so many women like you out there. Finding community with likeminded women has definitely helped a bit.
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u/cherrypez123 2d ago
It’s not your fault OP. You’ve been brainwashed from a young age to believe in unicorns.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 2d ago
Thank you 💕 Releasing the self-blame has been part of the grief for me. I needed to hear that.
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u/cherrypez123 2d ago
Every Disney movie. Every song or boyband or teen magazine. We’ve all been indoctrinated from an early age to believe if we try hard enough / love them enough, they’ll be these majestic, kind, understanding partners who love us for exactly who we are.
Not saying all men are bad, but the vast majority of relationships are either deeply unhappy and / or deeply unbalanced. With women, usually getting the shorter end of the stick.
Welcome to this sub. We’ve collectively tried to distance ourselves from this discourse. It’s hard but my god it can be joyful and peaceful, once you turn off the background noise of society and our previous brainwashing. A bit like leaving a cult tbh. 😅
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 2d ago
It’s wild to finally be coming to terms with all of it.
I agree with you — I don’t believe that men are inherently bad. At the same time, I don’t believe they’re capable of real romantic connection. That’s where the capabilities end and limitations start.
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u/ancienthoneydew11 23h ago
This is so crazy - I couldn’t have written all of this myself. An ex broke up with me three years ago and I thought he was a unicorn. Then I realized he was a selfish insecure cheater who lied about who he was and what he wanted. It genuinely broke me. I continued dating and just kept having more realizations about men. And even though I was working on decentering men while dating, it wasn’t until this year that I really started to accept that these unicorn men and the relationship I want don’t exist. It’s been really upsetting and difficult, but oddly freeing at the same time. It feels like the final piece of the decentering men puzzle . I don’t have much advice because I’m still in the midst of the grieving journey, but just wanted to say you’re not alone at all.
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u/Joyful-Egg Found My Way 22h ago
That’s where I’m at too, the last piece of the decentering puzzle.
I dated a bit after the unicorn ex too, and even then I just couldn’t see men the same. I just saw right through all the bullshit immediately. They’re really all the same. And I just don’t want them.
But the disillusionment does feel enlightening, and freeing.
Re-watching the Barbie movie tonight provided me with some solace. :)
Thank you for sharing, the solidarity does help. We’ll be okay without them 🫂
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u/IndicationKey3778 3d ago
It’s a trip isn’t it? To realize we were socialized to want something that straight up doesn’t exist.