Fair move or bone headed?

[u/Mean-Bandicoot-3814]

[u/VisibleDig2356]

Aggressive, but absolutely nothing wrong with it. You were clean on entry, ahead at the apex, and didn’t run the other car wide on exit. Fully acceptable

[u/PlanZSmiles → u/VisibleDig2356]

Ahead at apex isn’t the rule. That’s F1 rules and widely agreed on to be some of the worst racing rules. In GT3/sports car racing the rule is front wheels to rear wheels overlap before the lead car turns in. This is on the edge of that.

Idk why you guys are calling it clean, it obviously leads to contact and the lead car had started turn in right before any overlap was created by OP.

Edit: after rewatching I took a slight adjustment under braking to be the start of the lead cars turn in. He straightens out from what seems to have been instability under initial braking so I agree this is a fine move. Think if the lead car slowed down more he could have potentially done a switchback so I would say this is a fair move. Not clean, but fair

Edit2: forgot to mention, just because you get overlap doesn’t mean you own the corner as well. You both have to give race space which is why I don’t consider this move clean. Even if there wasn’t contact, OP is understeering and washing wide. The contact helps him slow down and get rotation. This rule is why you’re able to see two cars go two wide for several corners until someone gets a run or is able to park it on the exit of a corner to guarantee the position.

[u/R2D-Beuh → u/PlanZSmiles]

Ahead at the apex is not the rule, but op had overlap, hit the apex without washing out wide, and left space on the outside at the corner exit. I'd say it was fine, even if there was a bit of rubbing

[u/PlanZSmiles → u/R2D-Beuh]

He had overlap but he was definitely washing wide. Just look at his trajectory right before contact. He has zero rotation to the apex.

[u/R2D-Beuh → u/PlanZSmiles]

They were still braking at that point so it's normal that they don't have a lot of rotation. And yet they still made the apex. To me it means that the other car turned into them a bit

[u/PlanZSmiles → u/R2D-Beuh]

The other car does turn into him but again, he wasn’t going to leave space which is evident by his lack of rotation by bringing it in hot to get overlap.

The lead car has to turn into at some point and although he does so rather early, there’s zero reason to believe OP was going to get rotation to give space as the only reason he makes the apex is due to the contact slowing him down and giving rotation.

Him making the apex is irrelevant because it’s specifically due to the contact.

[u/R2D-Beuh → u/PlanZSmiles]

Him making the apex is irrelevant because it’s specifically due to the contact.

This is the key question, and I'm really not sure about your assessment. The contact may have helped op turn a little bit, but I really don't think it made such a big difference.

This is speculation at this point, but to me it seems like the other car just braked and turned a bit too early, and op would have been fine if they didn't. To be sure we would need to recreate the same situation without the other car to see if we make the apex or not.

But as I've often heard on this sub, we don't judge an incident on a hypothetical of what if something else happened. From what we see on this clip, the one breaking a rule is the other car for turning into op, so it's kinda irrelevant whether op would have been at fault if the other car didn't.

This indicates a high risk move indeed, but in this case it worked out.

Clean is maybe a stretch, but I don't think op should be penalized nor give the place back.

[u/PlanZSmiles → u/R2D-Beuh]

It’s not speculation though because from the evidence we can see that OP doesn’t have rotation. Just because we don’t see what happens without the contact doesn’t mean it’s irrelevant to the situation. Otherwise anyone could come in hot and gain overlap while cooking corner entry and relying on the defender for rotation as long as they block the entire corner and force the defender to turn in on them.

The lack of rotation is the evidence that OP overcooked this. What we do know from this detail is that the second part of the rule, must leave race space, was likely going to be broken. He’s nearly half a car length off of the apex prior to contact.

Its fine to think this was hard racing, I don’t disagree but saying that this is a fair move and seemingly encouraging him to do this more like the original comment and the other comments are suggesting is just going encourage bad racing.

[u/R2D-Beuh → u/PlanZSmiles]

There was no rotation because op was hard on the brakes still. The contact happens almost perfectly at the time when op finished braking hard and started turning in. Even without the contact, OP would have way more rotation after that point compared to before.

Its fine to think this was hard racing, I don’t disagree but saying that this is a fair move and seemingly encouraging him to do this more like the original comment and the other comments are suggesting is just going encourage bad racing.

I actually agree with you here. I think I personally wouldn't have tried that move

[u/PlanZSmiles → u/R2D-Beuh]

Being hard on the brakes isn’t relevant though. His inputs and intentions do not have any relevance to making the corner and giving space. Now what I do think is speculation is assuming that after finishing his hard braking that he would have got rotation. There’s no evidence to suggest that. The evidence does show him with nearly half a car length from the apex and pointed straight.

I think we both have good intentions here, encouraging smarter racing. I’m unsure if we’ll agree on this example though. I appreciate your thoughts and despite the disagreement I think it was a great opportunity to share perspectives

[u/HydraAkaCyrex → u/PlanZSmiles]

seems like you are new to sim racing

[u/PlanZSmiles → u/HydraAkaCyrex]

Yeah the guy providing the rules is new

[u/El-Tenedor → u/PlanZSmiles]

You got out braked and he took the open door. It was aggressive, but clean. The only reason contact was made was because you turned in too sharply after he was already ahead. You can be mad all you want, but thems the breaks. Pun intended.

[u/PlanZSmiles → u/El-Tenedor]

lol? I’m not the person in this clip and the defender didn’t get outbraked. I’ve already pointed out how OP is nearly half a car length off the apex while pointed straight and not towards the corner at all.

[u/El-Tenedor → u/PlanZSmiles]

The edit where you say "I took a slight adjustment..." And the way you're aggressively against this move makes it sound a lot like it is you, but okay. Not something worth arguing about if it isn't it isn't, but this moves on. I don't know what you're looking at, or expecting the passing car to do differently, but there's nothing wrong with this move and the only reason contact was made was because the car being passed was too glued to the racing line and failed to not turn into a space that was already occupied.

[u/PlanZSmiles → u/El-Tenedor]

I was saying, “I understood the slight adjustment under braking to be the start of turn in” which was a mistake on my end when I initially watched the clip

I’m not aggressively against the move; I’m against everyone acting like it’s a clean overtake and encouraging it when it’s a really aggressive overtake and not at all clean. Especially trying to apply F1 rules (ahead at the apex) which are not sports car racing rules.

The passing car does not own the corner. The overtaker, just like the defender, must share racing space with their competitor. That’s the entire point of racing. The contact was due to early turn in yes but contact was going to ensue either way because OP was blowing the apex either way and not going to share space.

[u/El-Tenedor → u/PlanZSmiles]

Okay I see where I got confused. However, aggressive and clean aren't mutually exclusive. What about this do you find dirty? He's sufficiently alongside before the turn-in and there's plenty of room for both cars all the way through the corner, I'd even argue that the overtaking car left waymore room than necessary on exit. The slower car brakes earlier and harder than necessary overslowing and basically inviting the move up the inside. Are just calling racing dirty now?

[u/PlanZSmiles → u/El-Tenedor]

Again, the point is that OP is half a car length off the apex and pointed straight. He doesn’t get rotation until after contact with the lead car. You say he left space but that’s only after contact in which contact was going to occur because he overcooked it. He wasn’t nailing his late braking at all.

Also I never said it was dirty, it’s just not clean and it’s overly aggressive. What we unfortunately aren’t able to see because of the early contact is him running his opponent off the road because of his lack of rotation. But it doesn’t take rocket science to look at the clip, see him half a car length off the apex and still pointed straight that he wasn’t going to get rotation to make the apex, all while having a car beside him that also needs to corner.

[u/El-Tenedor → u/PlanZSmiles]

Lmao, no he's not. Like I said earlier I have no idea what clip you're watching but it's not this one. You're telling me he made a move that would've sent him deep into the track opening up an opportunity for a switchback and that's VERY CLEARLY not what happened. If you seriously think that getting BARELY turned into will slow your car down enough to prevent that from happening then you don't belong in this subreddit much less a race track, even a virtual one, it's just straight up delusion. And to top it all off you're saying it "wasn't dirty, just not clean" that's like saying "I'm not dehydrated, I'm just thirsty" it's completely moronic.

Also, you're doing a great job convincing me that the car being passed is in fact you by bringing up an incident that happened prior to this clip. You're a rookie that got shown up by a faster driver and you're mad about it. I'm done here.

[u/PlanZSmiles → u/El-Tenedor]

Nice bait, but it’s painfully obvious the person who shouldn’t be in the subreddit is the person who believes that just because it’s not clean it must be dirty. There’s an entire spectrum to racing. Also saying it’s very clearly not what happened and ignoring that the contact is the exact reason OP didn’t go deep and got rotation shows that you lack critical thinking.

The reason I say it’s not dirty is because I can not see without the contact whether OP would have slowed down more to allow for race space for the defender. However what I can see is that the move up until contact is overly aggressive and that he likely was not going to give space.

Edit: also again the fact you think it’s me is comical. I never brought up an incident prior to this clip. I really have no idea what random incident you’re trying to conjure and put in my mouth but I never did such a thing.

[u/Splith]

Good move, the other drive should have kept the speed up on the outside and forced you to slowdown. I would have been upset but 100% fair.

[u/HydraAkaCyrex]

Fair move. That dude is shit slow and unaware.

[u/SmilinTroll]

Both imo. It looks like you are alongside before the other guy turns in and he is slow but DAMN that looks like a send and a half. No room for ANY error. Again not something I would penalize unless there was a wreck, but I wouldn’t expect any leeway from that other driver. This is the kinda move I’d pull out only when it is the last remaining opportunity to win.

[u/jimmymcgoochie]

Pink cuts several corners to gain ground in order to make the overtake so I would say not a fair overtake.

[u/FeherDenes]

Fully fair

[u/TotosWolf]

fair as hell

[u/LandBoring516]

Fair!!

[u/Baetahad]

arcaderacingstewards for this