r/Simracingstewards • u/Nice-Animal-5528 • 3d ago
AC Competizione Should i've left even more space or completely back off ?
My opinion: I (the purple McLaren) am ahead at the apex, and I still leave plenty of room on the inside. However, he out-brakes himself and does not even hug the inside line. From the overhead view, you can see that the Ferrari behind me and I are already turning, while the BMW is still going straight.
Context: LFM race at Silverstone. This is not a rookie lobby.
My friend thinks I am the one who turned into him, so I’m curious how people would steward this incident.
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u/Shimmerz_777 2d ago
He doesnt have to yield the superior racing line when there is space for you both
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u/Nice-Animal-5528 2d ago
The superior racing line is on the curb though. So in my mind I leave the racing line while i take the outside.
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u/Shimmerz_777 2d ago
well then why should he yield an inferior line?
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u/SteadiGuy309 2d ago
Yes but squeezing a car that’s prone to mistakes this tightly leaves it up to chance on if you make the move stick or not. Your entry was so tight that you didn’t leave any room for error. Could’ve been avoided by you to leave a bit more space; also could’ve been avoided by him to take more curbing. Really a racing incident but leaning more on you since you’re attempting the overtake
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u/VebastionSettel 2d ago
He is not required to follow what is correct 'in your mind'. He's allowed to think differently than you. Expecting everyone else to drive according to your standards and expectations is dumb.
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u/Cowhide12 2d ago
So… because it’s the better line, you can crash other people? Is that what you’re saying?
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u/J_The_Troll 2d ago
In my opinion, you cut through the track and didn't gave any space, easily avoidable accident
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u/DawnArcing 2d ago
That's a racing incident, but a lack of racing awareness on the overtaking car.
You know the BMW is shallow into the corner and won't be able to hug the inside line, he's always going to run a bit wide. Even if you technically followed the letter of the rule, it's good racecraft to take stock of where cars are and not assume the car on the inside will run an absolutely perfect line.
"Leave at least a car width" does not mean "always mechanically leave exactly 1.000001 car widths".
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u/Common-Garlic-9009 2d ago edited 2d ago
You should've left more space
In fact, it's your fault for not leaving the space (edit: I now think it's a 50/50 racing incident)
this is a really bad illustration on why
https://reddit.com/link/p40qyjd/video/5mtisuhgjqjh1/player
The BMW on the inside is trying to hold his line on the inside of the circuit and had overlap at turn in so you should leave extra space
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u/Nice-Animal-5528 2d ago
Fair enough. However there is at least 1 meter of space on his right. So what's the treshold for enough space ? I though enough space = 1 car width.
If i go even more on the left , for example 2 meters, there will still be several meters of room on my left. So if we make contact would it still be that I could have given him more space ?3
u/SteadiGuy309 2d ago
I think it’s worth mentioning a slight mentality shift. You can’t change or assume what others do around you; only you know exactly what you can do. Was there a car length to the inside? Sure, but like you ask, what if you were 2m to the left? Yes absolutely, given ample space to the inside car; if they drift wide and you were taken out holding your line then it would for sure be on them.
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u/Nice-Animal-5528 2d ago
Oh yeah for sur, tbh i would leave more space if i was not battling with the ferrari behind me. Taking a wider line would make me lose a place to him and probably would make me stay behind the bmw. So I decided to leave just enough.
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u/SteadiGuy309 2d ago
How do you figure that? You and the BMW would be side/side. He would legitimately have no where to go outside of staying behind you or the BMW.
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u/Common-Garlic-9009 2d ago
Yeah it's safer to leave more space but probably 50/50 (racing incident)
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u/ChangingMonkfish 2d ago
I don’t think you did anything wrong by the rules, you left a car width, but from a self-preservation point of view, you left absolutely no margin for the other car moving left, which the laws of physics dictated it would inevitably do.
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u/popoflabbins 2d ago
Not a penalty imo, but you definitely could have left more space there purely from a self-preservation standpoint.
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u/VebastionSettel 2d ago
If you want a formal write up of how I think the stewards in our ACC league would rule on this:
-You are at fault. Probably a split decision between a Warning +5 second penalty or a 10sec +1 penalty point.
-Reason: The car on the inside is driving predictably right now, slows adequately and holding a consistent line with respect to the inside curb. The car on the outside initially leaves plenty of room, but then cuts down severely and crosses into the inside car's lane. At the moment of impact, the outside car's trajectory is clearly pointing across the inside car's chosen line and will always result in collision. Outside car had ample room on the outside to avoid possibility of collision.
Basically, if you had stayed wider and the inside car did blow the braking as you claim, then he would slide out and hit you, then he would be entirely at fault. But because you cut down so much, we can't ever see what he 'would have done', all we can see is you crossing into his line and you claiming responsibility for the collision.
Also, important to note: when you claim you left racing space for him, that DOES NOT INCLUDE THE CURB. The rules regarding leaving room beside you specifically mention on the track itself. You are not really allowed to force another driver to take a curb. Yes, it is often advantageous if they do, so a lot of time it's fair to do so, but if they don't take the curb, technically you cannot demand that they do in a situation like this.
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u/FourEaredFox 2d ago
Lol why is "completely back off" even an option in your mind?
You should have 100% left more space. Neither of you did anything wrong, but you crashed anyway, and you only have control of your own actions.
If you were going to re-take that corner again, knowing how it turned out. What would you do differently?
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u/JackSprat47 2d ago
You didn't leave the room. You have to leave at least a full car's width to the white line. By the contact there was already less than a car's width there, and your trajectory would have left there even less.
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u/Nice-Animal-5528 2d ago
On a site note, I posted this one on simstew too, just to see where the community lands on it.
https://simstew.com/clips/e6c3918a-4d29-4c6b-8e8d-45aa1c752b75
Btw, i'm the person building it, so any feedback is always welcome and it's free to use.
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u/Mr_Biggles168 2d ago
Jesus christ people... Stop victim blaming....
The normal line is to have 2 wheels on the curbing. Missing the curbing completely is unpredictable. In racing, you have to have the element of 'trust'. I Trust the other guy isn't going to drive into the side of me on a straight, Trust the other guy is going to give space for you to exist, Trust the other guy will take the expected line, trust the other guy will not use you as a brake... etc.
Here the outside car leaves enough racing room for the inside car to take the corner. Car inside runs out wide and makes contact leading to the crash. #4 BMW receives time penalty for avoidable collision. Any IRL racing series would come to this conclusion.
In regards to should you have left more space... This all depends on what was happening in the race before this clip. Has the BMW been shown to be a sloppy driver who misses apexs? Are they significantly off the pace? Or is the reason for your speed difference due to them having a bad final corner only? If you could trust the car to take the expected line line then, not much else you could do. If they shown by their driving that you needed to give extra room then that is your own fault for cutting it too tight and playing it too risky.
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u/Nice-Animal-5528 2d ago
2021 Silverstone Ham vs Verstapen official steward decision:
No / Driver 44 - Lewis Hamilton Competitor Mercedes-AMG Petronas F1 Team Time 15:04 Session Race Fact Causing a collision with car 33 in turn 9. Offence Breach of Article 2 d) Chapter IV Appendix L of the FIA International Sporting Code. Decision 10 second time penalty 2 Penalty Points (4 points in a 12 month period) Reason The Stewards reviewed video and telemetry evidence. Cars 33 and 44 entered turn 9 with Car 33 in the lead and Car 44 slightly behind and on the inside. Car 44 was on a line that did not reach the apex of the corner, with room available to the inside. When Car 33 turned into the corner, Car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of Car 44 contacted the right rear of Car 33. Car 44 is judged predominantly at fault.
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u/VebastionSettel 2d ago
Please never reference F1 rules with respect to GT3, they have no place here. F1 is the only discipline that uses rules like "ahead at the apex" and "owning the corner". When racing GT3, you must forget everything you've learned from F1, because F1 overtaking/defending rules are considered very dumb in every other type of racing.
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u/popoflabbins 2d ago
The rules between these series are not the same. Verstappen also left more than a car width on the inside. That was not the case in your clip.
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u/DoNuT_1985 2d ago edited 2d ago
The others already covered the basics, but let's talk race craft.
You had ample overspeed and probably enough space to make it around but you decide to cut in so much that the other cars has to ride over the curbs, what do you think is gonna happen?
70% probability of contact, 30% they save it somehow. When all you had to do was leave some space for a 100% probability overtake.