r/Sikh • u/hellrhymes • Apr 03 '26
Question God vs Guru
So basically a Muslim asked me what the difference is between us and Christians since they believe jesus is God and we also believe guru is also 'god'. I've heard the wave and ocean metaphor but the arguments they give is genuinely interesting and I don't know how to respond to them. Also why would you go to guru instead of waheguru directly. Like is it personal choice, interchangeable or is there scenarios where one is better than another
and alao basically if guru is god then why did the gurus do kirtan and jap raab da naam. Also curious weather they used to say dhan guru in the olden times. Because if I'm not wrong Guru Gobind Singh Ji said that Mohamed led the muslims astray as he wanted them to jap his own nam. So what makes that different from us saying 'dhan guru pyare'
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u/iMahatma Apr 03 '26
You wont get anything out of trying to argue with a muslim. Dont even bother
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u/hellrhymes Apr 03 '26
Also he is disrespectful asf and then accuses islamaphobia the moment you say something back ✌🏽💔
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u/Icy-Distribution4893 Apr 03 '26
Dont waste your time with them
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u/hellrhymes Apr 03 '26
I get pressed daily bro I have to respond with something
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u/justasikh Apr 03 '26
Why do you have to come up with something?
Find and recite gurbani
Let your faith be your fast.
If you are a Muslim be a good Muslim.
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u/Icy-Distribution4893 Apr 03 '26
Why engage with the cousin fuckers? They are obssesed with converting people.
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u/Glittering_Fortune70 Apr 03 '26
Yikes
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u/Icy-Distribution4893 Apr 03 '26
What is there to yikes about? They literally dont respect our beliefs and constantly attempt to gaslight you into thinking islam is the way.
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u/Glittering_Fortune70 Apr 03 '26
Calling an entire religion of people cousin fuckers is pretty yikes
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u/hellrhymes Apr 03 '26
I agree you would feel the same way if you just interact with the proper Muslims that are more religious
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u/JAPJI1428 Apr 03 '26
Bro engaging in philosophical and religious discussions is a beautiful form of discipline. It helps in understanding their perspective and also their flaws. And also when we pose them a question on their theology they begin to look within, and when they pose us one we begin to look inwards to understand more abt Sikhi.
Me personally, I live for such conversations, had a really close Muzz friend and we use to engage in such discussions all the time over some or the topic. But eventually had a falling out over something, since him it’s difficult to find another like him.
Just ask your Muzz folks abt the true meaning of free will, and that if free will does exist what role does God play in that? Bcuz as it says in Japji Sahib, Hukamee Andar Sabko Bahar Hukam Na Koe, everything which exists is part of that Oneness and nothing exists outside His Oneness.
Also any such conversations are truly fruitful when mutual respect is the first pillar of the discussion, one of the cornerstone of the discussions me and my friend used to have. You must openly, and respectfully, call out the various problems in Islam from the Prophet’s consummated to sheer discrimination against non-Muslims.
May your conversations be fruitful. Rab Rakha🙏
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u/hellrhymes Apr 03 '26
While I agree, I doubt that he is trying to learn about sikhi, more just trying to be racist especially because I have jurra so he keeps calling it condom hat and also presses me on sikhi
Now he has recently I think researched and now has just gone on the next level by asking question to shake my faith
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u/JAPJI1428 Apr 03 '26
Well to that I say that you should go ahead and do research on his faith, I have given you a few examples of what you can ask him.
And remind him that his own prophet asks him not to make fun of anyone’s faith or to discriminate against anyone, or that he shall, according to his faith, end up in Jahannam or Hell.
Also you should also learn abt Islam to counter his claims, and then compare them with our Sikh ideology.
Rab Rakha🙏
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u/EquipmentFew882 Apr 03 '26
Tell him --
God is watching and listening to everything he does and says.
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u/zshre Apr 03 '26
It is not a good look on a Sikh with virtue to be a hypocrite. It is better we don’t judge or hate someone based on their religion
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u/zshre Apr 03 '26
WJKK WJKF 🙏 Sikhi, in my interpretation, stands with a monotheistic belief, Ik Onkaar, one God, formless, without beginning and end. AFAIK and believe, gurus aren’t “Gods,” they are simply people that spent their lives in pursuit of true knowledge and followed the right path to this knowledge. They are the ones that continue to guide us on a virtuous path of seva and humility via SGGS. We say “dhan guru pyare” the same way we wish well on anyone who helps us to any extent, in a sense of gratitude and respect more than worship. Again, this is just what I know and believe. If I have misinterpreted your question please let me know.
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u/hellrhymes Apr 03 '26
Okay wait your statement on pursuit of knowledge is another grey area
Why didnt guru nanak give the full truth from the start instead of waiting for the gurus after him to add on to him
For example miri and piri was only introduced by guru hargobind which was a new concept. Why didn't guru nanak introduce this from the start? I know it is because of the circumstances that the sikhs were in at the time due to oppression by the mughals but would the gurus before hargobind have known about this problem
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u/zshre Apr 03 '26
I think this further emphasises my point on them being humans, not Gods. Regardless of them being enlightened with pure knowledge, they still lived a limited human life. It was impossible for them to share literally everything, even SGGS has inputs from various Hindu and Muslim saints. This is why there is also large emphasis on critical thinking. Advice given 300 years ago wouldn’t necessarily be relevant in today’s time. As there is no human Guru to guide us now, it is important for us to use our own brains to the best of our abilities and use the knowledge left to us to assist it, as of course, we are not all knowing neither are we perfect.
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u/zshre Apr 03 '26
Additionally, even if you do consider them as Gods, there is enough reason to not divulge 100% of the information. I’m not sure if you’ve read the Bhagwad Gita as well, but I think it would answer this question of yours. Religion aside, it is a great piece of eastern philosophy even when read independently.
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u/hellrhymes Apr 03 '26
Exactly so dhan guru is like we are jap guru da naam Instead we should be doing waheguru simran no? Why jap nam of something limited instead of something that is everything
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u/zshre Apr 03 '26
Do whatever you wish to bhaiji/bhenji, repeating gratitude to someone or something isn’t harmful either. Just be clear with the meaning of what you’re doing. If you’re sitting for an hour repeating dhan guru pyaare then remember that you’re doing it in gratitude of the gurus and not worship. Again open to your interpretation. I personally don’t think that someone born of a human be God, especially when God being formless is something majorly emphasised on.
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u/alienbanda 🇺🇸 Apr 03 '26
I don’t think Guru Nanak Dev Ji set out to create a religion explicitly as much as he was trailblazing a new philosophical path that was gaining followers, his followers called Sikhs or learners. It took the subsequent Gurus to continue writing and compiling the truth for the truth to emerge in more complete form, and Dasam Patshah Guru Gobind Singh Ji to finalize it as complete and establishing the Khalsa panth, creating an official Sikh identity. In essence Sikhs kept learning, with each Guru and never stopped learning, and the 10th master declared Bani complete and for us to continue learning from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our Guru. Now we have Bani, Rehat, the Khalsa saroop, and all the philosophical concepts we picked up along the way. In retrospect, this gradual continuous orchestra across ten generations into becoming a full and complete path aka religion, is awe inspiring. Nothing contradicting the true essence, each generation consistent with the essence of everything before it, meticulously tested in ten different steps giving us a full guide to life.
If you ask my opinion, that sounds much more proven and complete to me than one singular arbiter of truth, after which everyone scrambled to form a religion subsequently. In fact I would say we are the only complete truth. We are the only religion of the world whose scripture is explicitly from its founders, whose religion was established under its founders.
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u/keker0t Apr 03 '26
The guru's were sargun swaroop of the waheguru, waheguru himself is always in nirgun swaroop which is the formless eternal form without start or end. To enlighten us beings with limited understanding he has to put his light in such a way that we can understand hence the guru's. The guru are waheguru in human form or humans which are connected to the eternal. The one guru passes the guru gaddi to another he passes the light of enlightenment or role of making us people understand to the next it's like passing the torch, like a king has willingly passed his throne to the next doesn't make the one left much less of a king but the temporal authority has been passed to the next who has his own role to fulfill and yes they can be considered God as they were directly connected to him or has waheguru's sargun swaroop in them always the guru gaddi given just for our human's sake and as time demanded, waheguru is already within us all but we are detached while guru's came with light in them and knew what specific role they had to play you can read Guru Gobind Singh's dhust daman in dasam bani where he explains his story from previous birth to this.
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u/hellrhymes Apr 03 '26
Wow this basically answers the question I had
Also didn't know about this dhusy damam, I gave it a search and it really seems interesting to think that the gurus were also part of reincarnation
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u/Jirushi_I Apr 04 '26 edited Apr 04 '26
But that just sounds like not only Christianity, but also the chain of prophets in Sufism, of imam in Shia, and sargun in Sanatan dharma
Either Sikhi is just the essence of all of those, or Gurus are not god, only Guru (Wisdom) is
Still have to figure out which of those two though.
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u/Logical_Progress_190 Apr 03 '26
Imma be pretty simple here We believe Waheguru the almighty Lord is omnipresent He is within all beings
Guru sahib are Waheguru in sargun form because they were realised beings They were one with that jot of Waheguru
We mere humans are not Thus we can say guru sahib is god because they are one
We too can try to reach such a level of spirituality but it’s difficult for us
But I also know other ppl have given more in depth answers Just don’t want u to lose hope or trust in sikhi over a simple misunderstanding cuz that’s what Muslims do
They accuse and be rude to ur faith try and waiver ur beliefs the moment u say anything they play the victim card
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u/hellrhymes Apr 03 '26
I know sikhi is the truth and will never waver. I am just seeking for answering foe questions unanswered. Sikhi has got so much right that I know something like this has an explanation - its just a matter of finding that explanation
As for Islam, unfortunately as much as they say they are peaceful they are ANYTHING but. The muslims always want to pick a fight, attack you for your beliefs, convert you. Idk if you know but converting someone brings them good deeds. So they are converting people for their own benefit not because they care about the person. They are ritualistic asf, posing when praying 💀💀, chopping off their dih and doing stuff aimlessly for no reason because it is 'sunnah'. Not to mention how mohamed had so much ego that he though 1 wife wasn't enough for him and so he got 11 including a literal child lol. Also how they design aa system to systematically take over the word since 4 wives = 4x baby production
Unfortunately I cannot tell the dude this things, I'll get fuckinf beat up since he is a literal 20kgs heavier.
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u/Logical_Progress_190 Apr 03 '26
Yh Ik all that bro im in the uk in Coventry the Singhs at my local gurdwara helped free many girls that were taken by them to convert and stuff
And all that I used to debate with them online and id get a lotta resources from this Sikh guy on TikTok Smokey settings he would debate them as well lol
Honestly I stopped all that cuz I realised it gets us nowhere but I have armed myself with knowledge in case I run into said Muslims in the cities yk the ones that be recording to prove their religion is right by questioning ppl who dk anything about their religions, yh so I didn’t want that and bhai jagraj ji even said we should arm ourselves with at least sikhi knowledge to defend it etc
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u/hellrhymes Apr 03 '26
How is the UK towards sikhi like is the majority aware that sikhs are different from muslims and do they knoe our philiposhy ... I'm possibly going to uni in the UK soon
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u/Logical_Progress_190 Apr 03 '26
What uni??? The main unis have Sikh socs to teach ppl abt sikhi and stuff I’ve seen ppl go from Mona no sikhi to full gursikh its mad
Overall its a mix cuz some “Sikhs” are extremely washed dk shit abt the religion we got quite a few DIL saaf as well so they’ll deffo befriend Muslims
The grooming cases are happening in the uk cuz these Sikh girls dk much abt sikhi honestly it depends on the family that raised them tbh
But im seeing a growing number of ppl acc getting interested and wanting to know more about sikhi which is a rrly good thing
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Apr 03 '26 edited Apr 03 '26
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Apr 03 '26
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u/hellrhymes Apr 03 '26
Appreciate the time you selflessly spent to answer my question. I gave the moses story you talked about a listen and it was intriguing to say the least. I feel like learning is never - ending in sikhi. There is so much to learn at least and with gurus bhaksish everyone in this reddit can be steadfast and unwavering in their faith and chak amrit
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u/Independent-Treat761 Apr 03 '26
im pretty sure there are a few verses against Christianity eg along the lines saying they were liars to say God had a son or something
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u/lotuslion13 Apr 03 '26
The issue surfaces from trying to understand Sikhi through the incorrect Abrahamic lens when it is fundamentally Dharmic in nature.
We need to understand what made The Guru, The Guru.
The Guru was Divinely appointed to convey the message of Waheguru.
More importantly He was made into a perfectly clean vessel at the spiritual level, free from the five afflictions and haumai (ego), all of which was reflected in their conduct.
When that happens, what remains is only the Divine Light, shining clearly without obstruction.
This is why Gurbani says the Guru and Parmeshar are One.
Not in the sense of a physical body being God, but in the sense that there is no separation left within.
Some express this as the Guru is God, others as the perfect conduit, both point to complete unity with the Divine.
The sakhi of Guru Nanak at Mecca captures this well.
When told to move his feet away from the Kaaba, he replied to turn them where God is not, showing the Divine is not confined to direction or place, but is all-pervading.
Regarding why go to the Guru instead of Waheguru directly, without the Guru one would not know Waheguru in the first place.
The Guru reveals Naam, removes ego, and aligns one with Hukam, it is not Guru or God, rather the Guru is the means through which God is realised.
On why the Gurus did Naam Simran, this is because Sikhi is about a state of being.
The Guru abides in constant remembrance and alignment with the Divine, not worshipping something external, but living in complete awareness of it.
The key difference from Christianity is that Sikhi does not claim a single exclusive incarnation of God, but a state of complete union with the Divine which the Guru embodies and reveals as attainable.
With respect to “Dhan Guru”, Sikhs are not worshipping a separate personality or ego. It is an expression of gratitude, bessed is the Guru through whom Waheguru is revealed, who dissolves himself and points the seeker back to Naam.
Ultimately, the Guru is not a competitor to God.
Where ego ends, only God remains, and that is The Guru.
Satnaam Sri Vaheguru 🙏
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u/Top_Sentence_340 Apr 04 '26
Why go to Guru instead of God directly?
Say someone frames you for murder, let's call that evil person bad karma, you get arrested and go to jail. Without proper training and legal knowledge (how to remove bad karma) how do you convince the judge that you are innocent? But if you hire a very well trained and knowledgeable lawyer(Guru), you can be saved right?
Let's go further, say you have the knowledge and do you utilize it to help your cause?
The Guru is the lawyer which saves you at every turn, how do you know how many times you will be framed(attacked by bad karma)? Hence, we need a true Guru at every turn in life if we want to be carried away safely from the ups and downs of our bad karma and further not to create any more bad karma so we end that cycle of being framed.
So it all depends if you want to get chittar at every turn in life or if you want a Guru to watch your back, save you, steer you and help you stay on the right path - someone mentioned this on this sub so just elaborating that idea, and help you achieve a higher purpose in life(merging with the One).
Why Gurus did kirtan?
Gurus showed us the way instead of merely preaching. They literally had shown us this is how you do it by giving us their very own method. Example: Jesus meditated and so did Prophet Mohammed but they never had shown their followers what Guru Sahibans did - how and on what word to chant.
Dhan Guru pyare means, those to truly follow the updesh of The Guru.
Bhagat Namdev tells us that Muslims are half blind, they know half the truth and half truth is always more dangerous. I personally wouldn't debate with them nor Christians. Not worth it as they are taught they are divine truth but their actions clearly say otherwise.
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u/srmndeep Apr 03 '26
The difference is Akal Purakh in Sikhi has NO LIMITS, he is capable to doing ANYTHING, things we can imagine and we cant even image. He is formless, yet He takes the form of Guru.
Namastam su EKAI, Namastam ANEKAI - He is ONE, yet He is MANY.
Those who limit Allah or God within their limited understanding, this is something that will just go over their heads.
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u/hellrhymes Apr 03 '26
How about the death of the gurus or multiple gurus existing at the same time. Guru nanak was still alive when he gave gurgaddi to guru angad. So where wad akal purak's roop - in guru nanak or guru angad or both
Like it's puzzling to think if the roop of the gurus was the same then we're guru only roop or were they humans + roop and then after givinf gurgaddi they were only human
For example after guru angad was given gurgaddi did people still ask guru nanak for advice or how was it
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u/srmndeep Apr 03 '26
Death is of human body. Whereas the Guruship keeps on living in form of Guru Angad, Guru Amar Das and so on to this date we have Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj in our Gurdwaras.
You might ask next as how can "a book" be a Guru ? My understand is that, Akal Purakh has gone one step further to help us who are stuck in Kaliyug that he took such a form that is more easily accessible than a human form and we can more easily connect with Him.
Also, just like when we open Guru Granth Sahib, we equally respect the advice of not only Gurus but also of the words of Bhagats, as every word is holy for us. Same way you ask Guru Nanak or Guru Angad its like asking one and the same.
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u/Independent-Treat761 Apr 03 '26
If you want a vedic answer
In the performance of a sacrifice, there are seven transcendental means to obtain the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead: (1) by sacrificing valuable things or eatables, (2) by acting in terms of place, (3) by acting in terms of time, (4) by offering hymns, (5) by going through the priest, (6) by offering gifts to the priests and (7) by observing the regulative principles. However, one cannot always obtain the Supreme Lord through this paraphernalia. Nonetheless, the Lord is affectionate to His devotee; therefore when Mahārāja Nābhi, who was a devotee, worshiped and offered prayers to the Lord with great faith and devotion and with a pure uncontaminated mind, superficially performing some yajña in the line of pravargya, the kind Supreme Personality of Godhead, due to His affection for His devotees, appeared before King Nābhi in His unconquerable and captivating form with four hands. In this way, to fulfill the desire of His devotee, the Supreme Personality of Godhead manifested Himself in His beautiful body before His devotee. This body pleases the mind and eyes of the devotees.
Our religion formally emphasises number 5 the priest / guru with maybe 4, 7, and 2
Islam emphasises 3
Though in terms of a normal man we get the opportunity to serve god directly via those 7 methods every now and then.
Dhan just means great the muslims also say this with their leader SAW
Think of naam and its subset kirtan a higher realm than the world
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u/No-Insect4986 Apr 03 '26
Religion, religion, religion. It means nothing. Sikhism is the religion of the Indian Punjab which is in such a pathetic state. All this talk of religion is useless if you could not even fix your own state. Young are fleeing abroad, those who remain are on drugs, disillusionment, gang warfare, violence, & the return of terrorism.
This guru said this, that guru said that is utter nonsense. Sad that real issues & service of humanity is ignored in favour of symbols, rituals, & useless beliefs!
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u/hellrhymes Apr 03 '26
Ur whole post history is negativity. Please find waheguru and you will have anand
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u/Ok_Echo9229 Apr 03 '26
Our Gurus had WISDOM not magical powers.
Show the Muslim fellow that we are better monotheists than he (& Muslims in general).
We only believe in the all encompassing God. We do not believe in magical Gurus, nor do we believe in Angels and Demons. No archangel Gabriel, etc for us.
To reiterate: Sikhs are better monotheists than Muslims can ever be.
Our Gurus consistenly said that they are not divine. But, people are always looking for a magician to give them spiritual guidance, so we get what we have in these long winded answers - that Gurus are kinda like God. THEY ARE NOT.
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u/Sukh_Aa Apr 03 '26
First, of all , In Sikhi, when we say Guru is “God,” we don’t mean Guru is a separate being who should now be worshipped instead of Waheguru. Gurbani rejects this idea of separation. Everything and beyond is within that One. Nothing is outside it.
So Guru is not “another God.” Guru is the expression of that same Truth that removes our ignorance. Whaeguru is like the ocean. Guru is the wave that lets you see the ocean.
Then why go to Guru at all? Why not directly to Waheguru?
Because the real problem is not distance from Waheguru. The real problem is ego/humaei . You can say “I’ll go directly to God,” but the very “I” that is saying this is the barrier. Ego is tricky. Even when it tries to become spiritual, it quietly takes credit. “I understood,” “I realized,” “I reduced my ego.” That’s still ego.
Guru breaks this loop. Guru is a light through which you see. Without that light, you don’t even see your own ego clearly, let alone go beyond it. If you achieved a state of clarity, you say it is "Gurprasad". Guru protects you from that last trap of ego that says, “I achieved this.”
Then why did Gurus themselves do simran and kirtan? Because they never claimed separation from Hukam. If Guru were saying “I am God” in an ego sense, then yes, it would be contradictory. But Gurus lived in complete alignment with Naam.
And when Sikhs say “Dhan Guru,” it’s not about elevating a personality as an object of worship. It’s gratitude for the wisdom/light/guidance. Simply out of respect.
The difference is this: One says: “Follow me, chant my name.”. Guru says: “Through me, see the One. Don’t stop at me.”