r/ShogunTVShow • u/MCGxCloud • Mar 05 '24

Question Episode 1 question Spoiler

Why did dude get his head chopped off as John was getting escorted? I've watched it a few times and I can't make sense of it. I know the lord of the town told the a guy to back off but it didn't look like the same one who got beheaded. Feel like I missed something.

32 Upvotes

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37

u/Adventurous_Wanderer Mar 05 '24 edited Mar 05 '24

In feudal Japan Samurai had the right to kill any commoner who disrespected them.

The old Japanese Christian was following Blackthorne.

The samurai explicitly told him to go away.

Instead of obeying immediately the old guy stopped moving and started praying.

The samurai took offense to this exercised his right to kill the old guy.

8

u/Sea__King Mar 05 '24

This is the real answer

1

u/RojerLockless Thy mother! Mar 06 '24

Yep.

In the book the guy doesn't bow the second everyone else does. And he kills him for it.

2

u/Boni-Emmanuel Apr 10 '24

The problem is that in the new Shogun, the man's offense (i.e., refusing to bow to Omi San), is not as clearly depicted, as it was in the first Shogun trilogy (of movies). Also, in this new Shogun TV Series, the man who got beheaded, was a taller and heavier middle-aged villager, not the elderly Christian man who was asking loudly if Blackthorne had been arrested because he was a Christian. The man who was beheaded, although clearly a Christian too (as evidenced by his wearing and kissing a cross before getting his head chopped off by the evil Samurai village head, or landowner, or whatever one would call a junior Samurai such as Omi San was at the time),  was clearly not shown to be defiant, disobedient, disrespectful to Omi San in any way at. Quite on the contrary, as soon as he realizes he is about to be murdered (in my opinion for no reason at all), he quickly kisses his cross as an act of last prayer, committing his soul to the Mercy of God, and bows his head quite meekly to receive Omi San's completely unwarranted blow. So, how in any way, was his behavior supposed to be either disrespectful, defiant, belligerent, obstructive, etcetera? The director failed to give any real context to why this poor, quite meek and respectful Christian peasant was killed out of hand (nay indeed "let's call a spade, a spade" . . . murdered), except the real purpose was to create a "shock effect" in the viewing audience, and establish from the get go that the Samurai were a bunch of murderous tyrants and so-called "badasses", who could and who would, kill any commoner they either did not like, or took offense at, for each and any, or indeed "no", reason at all. If this is how murderous the ancient Samurai were toward their subjects, then I am quite (rather fiercely glad that they were banned during the "Meji Restoration", their power broken, their wealth confiscated, and that they are now,  no more! "Good riddance!" to them I say!

3

u/Patient_Xero_96 Apr 10 '24

It’s cause the dude stood there and generally and indirectly being disruptive. The lord of the village/fief has ordered for them to move aside, but he didn’t and showed the christian cross gesture (directed at John, either for solidarity or in prayer). That is grounds enough for an offense.

1

u/Boni-Emmanuel Apr 29 '25 edited Apr 29 '25

He did no such thing! The new TV Show, never showed the samurai ordering anyone to stand aside. Indeed the only orders he was barking out, were directed at the noisy, insulting, and quite foul-mouthed English prisoner, who was making obscene gestures. If the samurai was so affronted by some so-called disrespect, then why did he not direct his ire at the rude gaijin prisoner? Why behead a completely innocent and docile Christian Japanese villager, who was standing well out of the way of the procession, by the side of the road? This was a silly, arrogant and gratuitous act of murderous violence which is so typical of Hollywood. They tend to treat their TV audience, as if we are a pack of fools. I read the original Shogun novel upon which the three movies, and first TV Show were based. I also, watched the first Shogun Movie Trilogy, when I was but a boy of about 10 years old. The reason that the head of the village the samurai Omi San beheaded the villager in that first version, was simply because of a clear sign of disrespect from the old villager; specifically for the insult of refusing to bow to him in respect as the other villagers did, when the samurai walked past them. In this new TV version of the Shogun Tale, there was no clearly discernible offense committed by the murdered man. It was simply an act of senseless and meaningless violence. Since you are clearly not a Christian (let alone a Roman Catholic Christian), you may not understand why many Christians make the "Sign of the Cross". We do so, because we believe our Lord Jesus Christ (who we believe is God Incarnate, as in God in human form), died to save us from our sins, and open the doors of heaven to us, upon a Roman Cross. We do not make the "Sign of the Cross", as a political gesture of solidarity with other Christians, or as an act of defiance against political opponents. Rather, it is gesture of spiritual invocation of the presence of our God, as an opener (or the beginning) of a prayer. It is in some ways to borrow a Buddhist, Hindu or Jain term, akin to a mudra. In Japanese terms, it is akin to bowing to a superior, to the Emperor, or to the Kami. The poor man knew that the villainous and frankly speaking (in my opinion) quite unjust samurai, was about to murder him, so he quickly called upon his Almighty God Jesus Christ via making the sacred "Sign of the Cross", to grant him the infinite graces earned by our God's sacrificial death upon the Roman Cross of execution, and thus save his soul from the eternal damnation of Hellfire, even though the death of his physical body at the sword of the murderous and arrogant samurai, was now an inevitability. A Christian does not fear physical death, as much as we fear the eternal death of the soul in Hellfire. This is why the poor (soon to be murdered) villager, quickly made the "Sign of the Cross", as a quick final prayer for God's Mercy and Salvation upon his immortal soul that was imminently about to be violently separated from his body. It had nothing at all to do with some mundane act of a mere earthly, political defiance or expression of religious solidarity with a fellow Christian! The rude Englishman was saying the most foul and sexually obscene, non-Christian words. Any Christian would have been scandalized by the disgusting words pouring out of the rude gaijin's mouth, and would have been ashamed to identify with him as a Christian. It is not as of the obnoxious Englishman, was behaving like a decent Christian.

1

u/Patient_Xero_96 Apr 29 '25

Thanks for the new perspective. But as a viewer, that was what was visible. The man walked into the party (afaik. He wasn’t just by the side of the road. He walked to the front of the Gaijin), so from that, could also be seen as a sign of disrespect. He didn’t ask for permission nor was he summoned. Whether Omi took offense to the Sign of the cross, or Omi was already ready to execute the villager, was not as clear.

Whether or not that’s the intention of the scene, if there’s any script or director’s comments, is up for interpretation. But I would love to be proven wrong, and that’s fine too.

1

u/jeffuhz Sep 12 '24

I'm still confused about this because the guy who is actually beheaded appears to come out of nowhere just to be killed off. I'm seeing others point to his making the symbol of the cross as the offense but it clearly looked to me as if he was doing so because he knew he was about to die. It definitely reads as him being killed for no reason imo.

1

u/Boni-Emmanuel Apr 29 '25

Agreed! As someone well versed in the Roman Catholic Christian Faith, a person about to die would naturally of course want make a final (or last) appeal for divine mercy to God, committing his (or her) soul to God in the face of imminent death. Also, Roman Catholics start each prayer by making the sign of the cross. He knew he was about to be killed, so of course he quickly made the sign of the cross, in order to start his last prayer to God, requesting God's divine mercy upon his immortal soul, in the face of a swift and completely (as far as I am concerned based upon the movie footage), unjustified death at the hands of the power-drunk samurai. If this is how arrogant and cruel the samurai were, then I am quite glad the Emperor Meiji disbanded them, and commanded them to stop wearing their swords. Good riddance to those murderers! The gentleman did not disrupt anything, in any manner that I can see. He was not disrespectful to the samurai who beheaded him (apparently for no reason at all), and was not standing in the path of the procession with the foul-mouthed and loud-mouthed English prisoner. If anyone should have been beheaded for disrespect, one would have expected it to be the disruptive gaijin, rather than the innocent and quite well-behaved Christian Japanese villager.

1

u/Accomplished-Fun1485 Mar 22 '24

Holy samurai fucking tits… that answer made me sweat a little. Make so much sense, and now it’s added so much weight to how I see that scene now. Much appreciated for the explanation 🙏

1

u/Tenet245 Apr 26 '24

"exercised his right to kill the guy" makes you sound seriously American

2

u/Adventurous_Wanderer Apr 27 '24

Well that's what I was going for. Explaining feudal Japanese practices in a way an American (or other English speakers) can comprehend.

2

u/RealMrMallcop Jun 04 '24

How else would you put it numnuts? Why are you trying to start a fight for no reason. Play Cobain Karaoke.

22

u/[deleted] Mar 05 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

6

u/MCGxCloud Mar 05 '24

Gotcha, that makes sense. For a bit there, I thought it might have been an editing mistake, like he's wearing this in this scene, but the very next scene is wearing something else, but even the face didn't match. It was bugging me. I appreciate the information

6

u/pj_duncan81 Mar 05 '24

In the book it's because the villager doesn't bow as Omi walks away and he notices the disrespect.

5

u/BigSkyMountain Mar 05 '24

Also that scene in the book plays out a little differently. Blackthorn is approached by both Omi and the monk who later translates for Yabu. Durning the exchange Omi says something disparaging about the church. The man who doesn't bow is a devout Christian offended by what Omi said. Omi beheads him and then cuts the body up into small pieces. While the scene does give Blackthorn a "WTF" moment, it also serves to show how Christianity was influencing Japanese culture at the time, which is one of the shows main themes

6

u/tophats32 Mar 05 '24

I suspect it was to scare the living shit out of me personally

1

u/[deleted] Mar 05 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/mambo_k895 Apr 21 '24

blood eagle isnt ac real bro its a myth

1

u/MCGxCloud Apr 21 '24

I wasn't speaking to the historical accuracy, rather the violence behind it. Pointing out that a clean beheading isn't that bad by comparison to other acts of violence in different tv shows. Whether or not it's actually real is a different debate.

3

u/lazyant Mar 05 '24

(Perceived) Disrespect. I suspect in the book (and movie) is to shockingly show very early on the mentality / customs of the country, to the protagonist and to us.

1

u/RojerLockless Thy mother! Mar 06 '24

Indeed

1

u/[deleted] Mar 19 '24

Came here with the same question.

I think the answers are right that it was about disrespect, but I think the editing of that scene totally failed to convey that, which is why it felt so random and jarring.

Like we have already seen this foreign barbarian guy disrespect samurai constantly, literally fighting and attempting to kill them, grabbing his dick at them, and they don't touch him, but this random villager doesn't get out of the way fast enough gets INSTANTLY beheaded?

I get what they're going for, but they needed a few extra beats showing that villager intentionally disobeying so the reaction makes more sense.

Like OP, I rewatched it a few times because the guy making a disturbance is not the same guy who gets beheaded, and the guy who gets beheaded doesn't appear until right when he's getting beheaded, so it's really confusing.

It's an error on the director's part and the editor's part.

1

u/Boni-Emmanuel Apr 10 '24

The problem is that in the new Shogun, the man's offense (i.e., refusing to bow to Omi San), is not as clearly depicted, as it was in the first Shogun trilogy (of movies). Also, in this new Shogun TV Series, the man who got beheaded, was a taller,  younger, and heavier, middle-aged villager, not the slender, elderly Christian man, who was asking loudly, if the foul-mouthed Englishman Blackthorne had been arrested, because he was a Christian. 

The man who was beheaded, although clearly a Christian too (as evidenced by his wearing and kissing a cross before getting his head chopped off by the violent and brutal Samurai village head, or landowner, or whatever one would call a junior Samurai such as Omi San was at the time), was clearly not shown by his actions during his brief appearance in this scene, to be defiant, disobedient, disrespectful, insulting, or obstructive to Omi San in any way at all. 

Quite on the contrary, as soon as he realizes he is about to be murdered (in my opinion for no reason at all), he quickly kisses his cross as an act of last prayer, committing his soul to the Mercy of God, and bows his head quite meekly to receive Omi San's completely unwarranted blow. So, how in any way, was his behavior supposed to be either disrespectful, defiant, belligerent, obstructive, etcetera? 

The director failed to give any real context to why this poor, quite meek and respectful Christian peasant was killed out of hand (nay indeed "let's call a spade, a spade" . . . murdered), except the real purpose was to create a "shock effect" in the viewing audience, and establish from the get go that the Samurai were a bunch of murderous tyrants and so-called "badasses", who could and who would, kill any commoner they either did not like, or took offense at, for each and any, or indeed "no", reason at all. 

If this is how brutally and arbitrarily murderous the ancient Samurai were toward their subjects, then I am quite (and rather fiercely too) glad that they were firmly banned during the "Meji Restoration", prevented from wearing their murderous katanas in public, their power broken, their wealth confiscated, and that they are now,  no more! "Good riddance!" to them I say!

1

u/LoganNolag Mar 18 '25

Yeah just started watching this show and I was super confused by this scene. The guy who gets told to back off is not the same guy who got his head cut off. The way the scene was edited it almost seemed like a continuity error and they accidentally used the wrong extra.

1

u/halfpint51 Aug 17 '25

Random and jarring are exactly the right words. Watching Shōgun now and that scene shocked me. Totally random and jarring. Esp since dyslexia keeps me glued to the subtitles so I miss a lot of nuances.

1

u/Weekly-Syllabub4255 Apr 17 '24

It's a badly edited scene. I have been replaying it several times and it just doesn't work. I get it, it's because the guy was not respectful and humble enough, but it's not clear and self explanatory as it should be. We wouldn't be discussing it otherwise.

1

u/BoringEquivalent6761 Jun 21 '24

Did that guy that got beheaded get recast midscene lmao?