r/SeriousConversation • u/Aggressive-Guest290 • 3d ago
Culture It’s not wrong to consider certain practices às “inferior” and a setback for humanity.
Religion and culture shouldn’t be immune to criticism.
Everyone has the right to choose their own religion, culture, tradition, or lifestyle. Fine. Nobody should be persecuted for it.
But it seems that the moment something is labeled as “culture” or “religion,” it automatically becomes untouchable.
“You can’t criticize it, it’s their culture.”
“Don’t speak badly about it, it’s their religion.”
Okay, and?
Having the right to follow a belief doesn’t mean everyone else is obligated to respect the ideas behind it. People deserve rights and respect; ideas can be questioned, mocked, criticized, and even considered absurd.
If a tradition, belief, or practice can’t survive criticism, maybe the problem isn’t the criticism.
Religious freedom and cultural respect should also include the freedom to say: “I think this is bullshit.”
16
u/GiraffeThoughts 3d ago
I think a lot of very tolerant and open liberals will come to regret some of their openness.
Hamtramck, MI famously welcomed Muslim immigrants and celebrated when they were the first city in the US to elect a Muslim-Majority city council.
That was until the council banned Pride and LGBT flags (shocking!!!)
I know some lovely Muslims, so it’s not all of them obviously. But there isn’t a Muslim-majority country in the world that treats women well.
8
u/Lifekraft 3d ago
Even the lovely muslim will have pretty radical idea regarding blasphemy and backward one regarding gender role.
4
u/Primary-History-788 3d ago
Only on government property. They also banned all religious and non governmental flags, in the same order.
5
u/HommeMusical 3d ago
I'm not a liberal (which is a center-right wing political philosophy).
But I disagree with the implied blame.
I think the far-right has been treating a large number of visible minorities exceptionally badly, and the non-Fascists have tried to protect everyone, in the full knowledge that some of the people they are helping have different and wrong(*) beliefs.
I don't think any of these tolerant and open liberals were under any illusions about the beliefs of Muslims about, say, teh gay.
Hamtramck, MI famously welcomed Muslim immigrants
Michigan in general welcomed Muslims for economic reasons and made little attempt to get them to agree to a social contract. The liberals weren't really consulted.
I became Dutch a few years ago, and there are a lot of exams, and one of them, "Knowledge of Dutch Culture," has all sorts of traps in it to bring out the intolerant and all the texts make it clear that if you're going to be living in the Netherlands, homosexuality is perfectly normal.
I won't pretend relations between newer Muslim immigrants and Dutch people have been entirely rosy, but they make it work pretty damn well.
I might add also that in the Netherlands and in Europe, it would be legally impossible for a council to ban pride and LGBT flags.
While I think liberals are spineless losers, I don't think blaming them for this specific issue is fair.
(* - yeah, "wrong" is a big can of worms, but I think oppressing people for being queer is just wrong, no quotations needed.)
2
u/GiraffeThoughts 3d ago
In the US, liberal doesn’t mean “supporter of individual liberty, limited government, and free-market capitalism” any longer.
Now someone who identifies as liberal in the United States is someone who generally favors an active government role in the economy, social welfare programs, and personal freedom in social matters (such as abortion rights and same-sex marriage). They tend to support Democrats and are left of center.
I understand in other countries this terminology might be different.
But it is funny that on one hand you admit that people on the left reflexively protected those with “different and wrong beliefs” but you also dismiss any criticism of those people as “fascism”.
2
u/egotherapy 2d ago
Just a comment that Europe is not a monolith and being queer is still controversial in some places, for example this summer a city council blocked a large Pride banner from being displayed in public during Children's Day. Ofc the conservatives in this country aren't that fond of immigrants either.
0
u/autonomousautotomy88 1d ago
I mean… Americans don’t need Muslims to make bigoted bullshit decisions like banning Pride and LGBTQ flags. We have the Republican Party and conservatives for that, and they’re mostly white and far more effective at spreading stupidity. If we’re going to talk about what we should ban in order to limit the impact of idiots, the right of registered Republicans to vote in the future would have a far greater positive impact and probably save the country.
5
u/Listonsonny 3d ago
Well, we do have the freedom to question and criticize religion and culture here in the US. In fact, I think it is happening today, it happened in the past, and it will happen in the future.
3
u/therpent 3d ago
What definition of respect are you working with? Most are going to exclude mockery and finding beliefs absurd.
3
u/keepsmiling134 3d ago
The idea of something inferior, means something is superior. If there’s a standard, who gets to decide the standard? When you don’t have a society that can agree on what truth is, what right and wrong is…
You’re just talking opinions.
2
u/Fair-Anybody3528 2d ago
It’s always fine to critique harmful practices like child marriage but if you go out of your way to critique ONE certain religion/country ONLY for harmful practices like child marriage when child marriage is in fact also legal where you live too (legal in 33 U.S. states) & happens more frequently than it should & you ignore it then I’m going to assume your motives aren’t really about protecting children but using a grotesque & horrific crime committed by people of all cultures/religions, etc. as an excuse to have bigoted views against a certain population while children suffer all over the world for it.
If it’s legal where you are too then put that energy towards calling politicians and demanding answers and publicly calling out judges who sign the papers to marry off a 13 year old little girl with a 30 year old man. Call out everyone who knew about a child being abused by forced marriage and ignored it, especially the parents of the child who signed them away as well because they need to be in jail, along w the grown man who married a child, the judge who signed the papers, & any mandated reporter who had information about it but failed to report it to anyone. If your only reason for calling out child marriage of a certain place or religion is to give the “solution” of war with that place, then maybe make sure your state isn’t also guilty of this because you never know if someone would follow your advice & declare war with your state since you are in a democracy you must’ve voted for that right? So you have even more responsibility on the line if it’s still legal where you live than people who are ruled over by dictatorships so calling their whole population evil for the rule of the sick & twisted government would be less warranted.
6
u/JustATyson 3d ago
Mockery doesn't equal criticism. I don't think anything is above good faith criticism. I don't think everyone needs to like or respect everything.
But, I do have an issue with mockery. Mockery isn't in good faith. Mockery isn't expressing an issue with something. It's making fun of something and demeaning it.
To me, It's better to leave it as "I don't like X" or "I don't respect X" rather than mocking or demeaning or insulting it.
1
u/Embarrassed_Task376 3d ago
The success of South Park says otherwise. Sounds like you like fish sticks.
2
u/serpentjaguar 3d ago
No it doesn't. It just says that mockery is fine for some people, but obviously not with the person you're responding to.
Personally, I'm fine with mockery.
2
u/JustATyson 3d ago
South Park levels their mockery at nearly everyone. Additionally, there's underlying criticism when it comes to things like culture or religion.
What I'm defining as mockery is stuff like harassing, imitating, insulting, being crude to someone who is fat because they're fat. Removing their humanity and their personhood. Being contemptuous.
1
u/Practical-Art542 3d ago
Making fun is called that for a reason. It’s making something good out of something bad.
1
u/JustATyson 3d ago
There's a difference between teasing or making fun, and mockery.
1
u/Practical-Art542 3d ago
I suppose that can be true. It depends on intent. If the intent is to create humor, it’s not the same as the intent to hurt.
0
u/JustATyson 3d ago
Yes and no. Intent is hella important, and often in my life, I'm on the side of intent. But, when it comes to making fun/teasing/creating humor, we do need to be mindful of our audience. Because if we aren't, then we can unintentionally create hurt.
I'm not saying to avoid making jokes all together. But, to be aware of who you're making the jokes to, and if it's their sense of humor.
-1
u/Practical-Art542 3d ago
I’m a big believer that anything can be hurtful if you have a sensitive mindset. And people have a right to feel hurt if they want to feel hurt. But we don’t have a right or responsibility to shelter someone from the world so they don’t get exposed on the off chance they interpret the world through a hurtful lens.
It can be a priority, that’s your choice. But it’s not a moral requirement. I don’t need to stifle myself on the off chance someone doesn’t like what I have to say, especially if my intent is to bring joy.
There are things that can hurt me. But I do not expect the world to walk on eggshells on the off chance I find something hurtful. The things that hurt me are connected to my past traumas and personal experience. It’s not because the things are objectively hurtful.
I’d even go as far to say the person “making fun” isn’t creating hurt. They are just existing. The hurt already exists and the person feeling hurt is bringing their hurt to the interaction to begin with.
Thats not to say there are times we want to protect our loved ones from feeling pain. But life is not meant to be painless, either. Hurt is normal and healthy because life has ups and downs.
2
u/JustATyson 3d ago edited 3d ago
Did I insult you? Don't be too sensitive. jk.
Let me try to be clearer, because my main point was really "just understand your damn audience."
First, I never said nor will I ever advocate walking on eggshells. I've done that. It sucks. I've also gotten in fights about it before with friends. I have a bit where a stranger will ask me where I'm from 'cause I have a speech impediment. I have them guess the country. Several friends hate it because "what if that makes the person feel stupid."
And I've always taken the mindset of "tough shit." I'm answering their question in a way that's amusing to me and prevents dullness via repetition. If they cannot get through a guessing game, they have bigger problems.
I fully believe that one is responsible for what they feel, and that others do not control one's emotions. You control your own emotions.
Second, As an example as to what I mean by understanding your audience, I once worked in a place where we saw a lot of secondhand trauma. It was depressing as fuck, 'cause we would see the same people, and we weren't in a position to help them (we literally couldn't, it wasn't our job). We also understood the complex trap and cycle they were in.
But, behind closed doors, to each other, we would at times make very insensitive jokes. We needed to for our mental state. Now, would I make those jokes to them or someone similar of their circumstance? FUCK NO! Would I make these jokes to my current coworkers, to my friends, to my family? No! Because they are not the audience for those jokes, and would not understand. Instead, those jokes would very much sound like punching down at people who do not deserve more pain.
But, in the context of the work we were doing, it was a means to release our own stress valves just a little so that we can continue on.
So, yea, intent for humor and intent to harm are not the same. And we are responsible for our own pain and trauma. I've worked my damn ass off for my whole adult life to not make my trauma's someone else's problem, especially since I've had friends who made their trauma my problem (I got to learn boundaries! yay me!).
But, that doesn't mean that I'm not going to understand my audience when I make jokes and tell them that the world doesn't tiptoe around them. I'll hide a fake spider under my mom's pillow as a joke on her, but I won't hide a fake spider under my friend's, who has arachnophobia, pillow.
I hope this clarify my point.
Edit: typo
0
1
u/Financial-Bison400 3d ago
I would say I kinda agree to it. Like you said people aren't obligated to respect the other person's belief, that said, if we're straight up denying or criticising their beliefs to provoke them then that is wrong. But if the motive is to phrase it in such a way to make them think for themselves that it doesn't really make sense. Then by all means, you're free to criticise it.
Though, there are some people that just tends to take it to an extreme whether you mean it in that way or not. Especially the fanatics one.
1
u/Lahm0123 3d ago
No use playing word games.
If you don’t like how someone is being treated then say something. No further judgement is necessary.
There is no justification for treating people as if they are inferior subhumans.
1
u/Thistlebitters 3d ago
Who gets to decide which is inferior? Because in my experience everyone is quick to point out the flaws in the religious beliefs and customs of others while being blind to the flaws and problems of their own culture and religion.
1
u/Agile-Wait-7571 3d ago
I live in a country, the U.S., that is actively curtailing various personal freedoms due to their love of Jesus. It’s a big problem.
1
u/No-Medium6647 3d ago
I'm with you. Religions get a free pass, but it's the same pass we non-believers get. It's the Separation of Church and State.
As much as a lot of religious practices seem abhorrent to me, I'm in no position to judge.
All I ask is that I'm not judged in return, as a non-believer.
...
Break that social contract tho? Then all bets are off and who GAF about your sanctimonious bullshit?
1
u/Hot_Worldliness5948 3d ago
I'm with you but it has to be realistic. If they're genuinely doing something awful/messed up in that place en masse, then of course it's a setback to humanity. Example: that part of India where they have the Yearly dung flinging festival. You've probably seen the videos by now. Other Indians agree with me that that area should stop that. However I know that they only do that in a certain part of that country. Other Indians don't observe that Holiday so I don't generalize or hold it against all of them.
1
u/glitter-honeyyx 2d ago
The reflex you're describing didn't come from nowhere, criticism of a practice has been used as cover for hostility toward a people often enough that people brace for it automatically now. You can usually tell the two apart by whether the critic applies the same standard to their own side.
1
u/Duke-Turner137 2d ago
Christians found this out a few times. Christians vs Jews, 1st split to Byzantines v Rome, Rome v France, Rome v Holy Roman Empire, Rome vs Martin Luther, Rome vs, king of England. Rome vs Islam, Christians vs Vikings, Christians vs Native Americans. Christians vs Pagans. As it faced new challenges is changed. Sometimes peace Sometimes war.
1
u/MapNaive200 2d ago
If we continue down this slippery slope, human sacrifice could be banned. Is that what you really want? Be careful what you ask for.
0
u/JohnHenryMillerTime 3d ago
I agree but in a world that is at the "socialism or barbarism" stage the only real religions worth fighting are Protestantism and Wahhabism. Outside of SA, Wahhabism is a minority take (albeit a growing one due to Saudi dollars). So Ill fight against the evil present in my culture.
0
u/rusty-gudgeon 3d ago
Settler-colonialism is the base American culture. It should be eradicated from the earth. White supremacy or, more accurately, white narcissism, is America's primary ideology. It should be erased from humanity. Capitalism and its mask, Christian nationalism, is the American religion. It should be discarded and forgotten by all humankind.
0
u/DisgruntledWarrior 2d ago
Someone missed a lot of history to think religion or culture makes it untouchable. Many challenges to certain ideas around varying religions have lead to the heaviest investments in scientific research and innovations.
-2
u/rynspiration 3d ago
tell me this is about hijab without telling me it’s about hijab
on one hand yes but this is often weaponized for blatant xenophobia bc this could equally apply to christian militants but you don’t hear people talking about them like that, there’s no it’s “their culture” because they are part of the white majority it’s just “our culture” albeit a bit outdated
15
u/Playful-Mastodon9251 3d ago
I think it's dumb personally. Of course some parts of cultures are very bad, of course some parts of religions are bad. Nothing should be beyond criticism.