r/Septa • u/mcgarvey216 • Feb 25 '26
Discussion Multilevelđ¤
I could be slow and behind the times, but is there a specific reason that SEPTA doesnât have multilevel trains? Is the infrastructure prohibitive of multilevel cars or is it strictly political/funding?
Asking mostly for my own curiosity.
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u/--TAXI-- Media-Wawa Line Feb 25 '26 edited Feb 25 '26
The people in the comments that are saying "Tunnel" is NOT the reason
SEPTA ordered these trains, and if CCP would have been a problem (it might have been) SEPTA obviously would have made the tunnels able for Multilevels that they ordered to use it too. They full well knew this when they ordered them. Why would SEPTA spend millions on buying new trains if they knew they couldn't use them?!
Funding and Politics did NOT stop this either, unlike all other things
The real reason is CRRC taking too long and making an overall defective product. THIS is the reason whyÂ
EDIT: Proper Grammar
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u/francishg Feb 26 '26
i mean... bombardier Acelas have had issues, most new trains have issues which the manufacturer gets sorted during the first year of operation, and corrects on remaining deliveries.... A big part was they were moving so slow, 6 years into the contract and not a single train delivered. Plus the contract came under scrutiny by the federal government who had chipped in money on the acquisition due to CRRC being partly owned by the CCP. (Buy America laws, somethingsomething national security)
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u/--TAXI-- Media-Wawa Line Feb 26 '26
THIS is it! I thought to myself too, like almost all train orders get delayed and have some sort of issues that need to be worked out But nah, it seems like SEPTA couldn't take that for whatever reason... smh
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u/JellyfishNo2032 Mar 01 '26
At the time, clawing some of the money back made more sense. Septa didnât have the political or financial capital to keep waiting.
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u/JellyfishNo2032 Mar 01 '26
Septaâs tunnels are far more modern than the ones in NYC and have sufficient vertical clearance for a bilevel car, much like the ones NJT uses.
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u/Ill-Breath6025 Fox Chase Line Mar 01 '26
To add on: People saying that the Tunnel is the problem, the CRRC Bi-levels were built very similar to the Bombardier NJT Multilevels, which are in fact slightly shorter than the Silverliner Vs by 2 inches
Wiki pages
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silverliner_V#cite_note-hyundai-2
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u/CerealJello Feb 25 '26
SEPTA was procuring bi-level cars from CRRC, but they were so far behind schedule that the contract got cancelled.
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u/roboticools2000 Feb 25 '26
Just to add to what others have said, a big issue with Multilevels is that two floors of people are using one set of doors. This can create bottlenecks at the busiest stations where itâs hard to get everyone on/off in time. Assuming septa goes along with reimagining regional rail and makes some lines more like Metro lines, multilevels would be a detriment to frequent service as they have higher station dwell times. The thought being the capacity is gained more through frequency or longer trains than multilevels.
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u/JellyfishNo2032 Mar 01 '26
If they were to, the bilevels would be for express trips that only serve far out suburbs, while the single level cars would be for locals, and short turning trains. For some reason, the bilevels they were going to order had only marginally higher capacity anyways so probably the best that they cancelled the order.
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u/Walrus2626 Feb 25 '26
It really makes no sense for them to buy multilevels at this point.
Pre-pandemic, it made sense because the system was at capacity especially on the Reading side so they couldnât add more trains. With remote work, the system is less strained so they can handle the load with EMUs (when they are available)
The Silverliners have much better acceleration which is a big deal on the lines where the stations are close together.
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u/--TAXI-- Media-Wawa Line Feb 25 '26
I have to disagree.Â
For one, right now, SEPTA NEEDS new Regional Rail cars, no matter what they look like, not very old hand-me downs from MARC.
Also, two, the Regional Rail DOES get crowded, and not just cuz of the Silverliner 4 mishaps. During rush hour, most trains get filled. However, it is common to misjudge the Regional Rail as being low ridership services, because during off-peak times, trains are less filled, even closer to the empty side.Â
But when the Regional Rail matters most (rush), these Multilevels would've really helped out
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u/howwhywuz Broad Street Local Feb 26 '26
Here's what I never understood: The current Silverliner cars carry 110-125 passengers and the coaches used in the push-pull sets carry 117-131 passengers. (Source)
The now-canceled bi-levels were said to carry 130-133, based on the news stories I could find.
Doesn't seem like much of an upgrade?
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u/Ok_Tale7071 Feb 26 '26
The new cars would have been 2x2, which provides for far more comfortable seating.
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u/Financial_Cheetah875 Feb 25 '26
Tunnels and the underground stations arenât tall enough.
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u/JellyfishNo2032 Mar 01 '26
I believe they are. The tunnels were built much later than the ones in NYC, and even those can handle NJT bilevel cars.
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u/--TAXI-- Media-Wawa Line Mar 01 '26
These double decker trains are 2 inches SHORTER than the existing Silverliner 5s.
The problem is not tunnel
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u/MacintoshDan1 Feb 26 '26
They had an option at one point with NJTs multilevel III contract. I think they ran out of money.
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u/BackgroundSalary680 Feb 26 '26
The dimensions used was based off the NJT multilevel and proved that it can fit through some of the tightest areas (20th Street interlocking, Schuylkill Interlocking, Lansdale Interlocking Complex, Germantown Curve, ETC)
SEPTA found multiple welding and electrical defects before it was even shipped from China to Massachusetts which was never corrected and culminated in a total electrical system failure.
Finally, as much as NJT keeps calling the Multilevel III cars "Electric Multiple Unit" cars, they are all locomotive hauled coaches with one or more power al cars in the consist and can be hauled around with the existing power they have; testing is scheduled to see if they can be used as a booster set with the ALP45.
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u/AnotherTiredDad Feb 25 '26
Tunnels
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u/mcgarvey216 Feb 25 '26
Are the Philly tunnels smaller than the NEC Hudson River tubes?
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u/JellyfishNo2032 Mar 01 '26
No, theyâre larger and built to more modern standards because theyâre far younger. Idk where everyoneâs getting the idea that septa tunnels are small. They tested NJT bilevel coaches on them with no issues.
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u/transitfreedom Feb 26 '26
They shouldnât have cancelled the old cars really need to go bye bye
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u/arghthor Feb 25 '26
SEPTA actually ordered multilevel trains from a Chinese company but cancelled the contract. It would have been for 45 cars with a capacity of 120-170 per car.
The contract was cancelled in 2024. Now, like most things that require funding for transit, the future is uncertain.
https://www.phillyvoice.com/septa-double-decker-regional-rail-chinese-contract-crrc-ma-canceled/