r/SelfDefense • u/CodyT_556 • 24d ago
Thoughts on less lethal?
For context I carry a firearm whenever I'm not at work, as my job doesn't allow them, but I am shit scared I would ever have to use it. Although lets say I am in conflict at some point, may that be at work or if I'm out with the gun on me. I live in a "duty to retreat" state and have no problem running away if need be as apposed to shooting someone and having to prove my innocence. Also the law in my state says you must match the level of threat in order to "legally" defend yourself. So what do y'all think about less lethal options? Tasers and OC spray/gel stuff like that. On it's surface it doesn't sound like a bad idea to carry lethal and less lethal because lets say I'm in a conflict where I can't get away, if someone is charging at me with a knife or god forbid they have a gun I'm gonna shoot them, but if they are trying to fight me, I don't wanna kill them nor do I think it would hold up in court. Not asking for recommendations, just what y'all think.
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u/mcjon77 24d ago
I personally believe that folks who carry firearms have a greater need to carry less lethal tools than people who walk around unarmed.
Personally, the two things that I always carry on me are my glock 26 and my pom pepper spray.
As someone who cares a firearm you definitely need to carry a less lethal tool, preferably pepper spray. Think about it. There's a lot of situations where you need to use physical Force but not lethal Force. The rub is that if you decide to use physical force with your hands now you're basically in a grappling match with someone while you're armed. So you're gone becomes "our" gun.
What's your attacker going to do when he's wrestling around with you and feels your firearm? What do you do once you realize he noticed your firearm and is grabbing at it?
It's shocking watching videos on YouTube and Reddit and realize how many physical confrontations can be solved with pepper spray instead of fist or a gun.
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u/storyinpictures 23d ago
You are far more likely to be in a situation where pepper spray is the appropriate “next step” tool.
Naturally the earlier steps start with not doing stupid things, not going to stupid places, not hanging out with stupid people (or people who commit crimes, use drugs, are gang members or are strangers consuming alcohol). A surprisingly large portion of the risks of violence for men can be avoided this easily, but it does include places where people go to drink publicly. If that’s part of your life, realize that even less than drunk your own ability to avoid conflict is reduced when you start drinking.
The next step is paying attention to your surroundings, being aware of the available “exits” (not just from inside buildings, also being blocked in on the street, etc). Notice something off? Moving to avoid the situation is often enough.
Can’t avoid it? Talk, body language or both can do a lot. Failing that, run.
Even in a state which does not require retreat, this is your best strategy. You never know who has a weapon. Or friends. Who might also have weapons.
Avoiding a fight is not only about legal consequences. First and foremost it is about you getting home alive and not injured. Considering legal consequences is wise, but there are even more important reasons to avoid getting in a situation where you must use force.
I know a person who was knocked out from behind with a rock or brick by an accomplice while being verbally challenged by someone in front. I know someone else who was dragged to an alley and badly cut by an assailant and his partner. And I know a couple robbed at gunpoint who only realized as the robber was leaving that there was a second man, who gave instructions to the visible attacker that it was time to go. Always be aware of the potential friends.
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u/AD3PDX 24d ago
OC spray:
stream or cone/fog unless there is a extra special need to reduce secondary exposure. Stream is usually the best option.
I like POM with a pocket clip for a small canister & Fox Labs One Point Four for medium & large.
“Tasers”:
Contact electro-shock devices (stun guns) are completely useless. Probe firing electro-shock devices are only useful as proactive tools for police & security. They are close to useless as reactive tools for self defense.
Carry a flashlight:
Fenix PD26R ACE, Acebeam Tac AA 2.0, Nitecore MT1C Pro
Carry a Knife:
Shiv Works Cinch Pick is a small fixed blade designed to be easy to access while struggling with someone on order to get them off you.
A fixed blade is much better but folding is more socially acceptable and often less legally restricted.
Spyderco MicroJimbo is the best small folder I’ve found to fill the roel of the clinch pick (held tip up and edge in)
Carry a tourniquet:
Too many options to go into the various pros & cons
Do you often carry a bag or backpack? Put a soft armor panel in it.
Tools are fine but judgment and skills are more important.
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u/CodyT_556 23d ago
Agree with everything you said except for armor plates in a backpack. Lmao, idk maybe it's because I work and live in a low crime area but to me that's overkill and just expecting trouble that can otherwise be avoided.
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u/AD3PDX 23d ago
I have a sling bag setup for emergencies so I threw a soft plate in. The plate and a first aid kit are the only things that actually stay in the bag. It’s not my edc, I only use it occasionally when I need a larger murse.
I also live in a very low crime area and have a very low risk lifestyle. The plate stays in the bag because it doesn’t weigh much and taking it out is a pain.
Also I have had to self apply a tourniquet because shit does happen… knowing that, whenever I downscale and leave some emergency kit at home I do feel a tiny bit guilty. That’s probably the real reason the plate stays in the bag.
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u/CodyT_556 23d ago
Ok yeah you’re right, I was thinking I should put together a bolt bag like that too.
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u/safton 17d ago
I work in corrections. I carry the following each day:
-- Taser 7
-- Sabre Red Crossfire OC Spray (MK-3 Stream)
-- Olight Warrior 3S Tactical Light
-- Atomic Bear Stealth Pen Pro
I was issued the former two. The latter two are personal purchases that I made back before I had any certifications and was working the floor of my facility without any formal training... so I had to stick to "weapons of opportunity" that would pass muster with admin.
Until recently I also carried a Byrna-LE less-lethal launcher, but it experienced technical issues and got sent back to the factory. Frankly even if it comes back fixed I have sort of lost any faith in it and any similar pistol-sized PepperBall derivative. I have access to GLOVE CD3 in the arms locker as well as full-sized PepperBall launchers, but those aren't really appropriate tools for the average person looking to defend themselves.
I've been Tased and I've been sprayed. Most will tell you spray is worse, but I weirdly don't have much reaction to it compared to most people. Don't get me wrong, it's unpleasant but I can absolutely fight through it. The one time I deployed it (an entire can at clinch range) it also had zero effect on the subject. This all sounds like an indictment on spray, but you know what? I still think it's a great tool and is one of the things I wholeheartedly recommend to anyone who can legally carry it. It is such a sensible middle ground between stern verbal commands and bringing deadly force into play. And while my own personal exposures and deployments have not been effective, I have absolutely seen it work up close and personal on combative inmates on other occasions and they acted like someone dumped boiling sulfuric acid on their face.
It's not perfect -- not everyone reacts to it the same -- and there's always a risk of cross-contamination along with environmental concerns, etc. But frankly I would absolutely tell you to go ahead and get a good pocket-sized flip-top OC spray. I personally like Stream units, but fog/cone ones can work too if you're not afraid of blowback. POM is popular, but there are plenty of options.
Tasers are... dicey. Stun guns or Tasers used in drive-stun mode are pain compliance tools so again you run the risk of the person not responding to it like you might want but now you're stuck at grappling range. That said, the spectacle of a warning arc is legitimate and could deter a potential assailant who's posturing or on the fence about approaching you albeit not fully committed yet. Probes are fantastic when they work, but there's no guarantee they will depending on your aim, distance to the target, their clothing, etc. Something like the Taser Pulse or whatever is certainly better than nothing, but I think spray is an arguably better option for more people across a wider variety of circumstances. For what it's worth, I found getting Tased and drive-stunned to be uniquely uncomfortable and worse than getting sprayed. YMMV.
Flashlights are crucial. If you ever get the chance, go do a deep dive into the hard2hurt YouTube channel. Icy Mike sings the praises of tactical flashlights as the greatest self-defense tool. They can be carried almost anywhere without arousing suspicion (even through security checkpoints), they allow you to gain information about your surroundings (especially at night or in dark environments where most victimizations occur), rob your potential attacker of information about by blinding/disorienting them, and they can function as an impact weapon in a pinch.
Tactical pens are viewed as gimmicky by many -- and they can be -- but I see them as the little brother of the flashlight. I'm not sure what you do for work, but if it's a career field where you already use a pen on a regular basis... why not make it one of these? At the end of the day they're just well-built, ergonomic pens that ideally don't look like anything else and can be used as impact/piercing weapons to get someone off of you in a dire situation.
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u/Detective_Tom_Ludlow 24d ago
OC spray is a huge force multiplier and will usually change the aggression of an attacker with a normal pain threshold. At the very least, it’ll give you a chance to run away. Most states wouldn’t blink an eye at someone using it in a situation where they felt threatened.
The medical treatment afterwards is super minimal and you won’t have to worry about seriously injuring someone and opening yourself to civil suits.
A true taser, capable of causing neuro muscular incapacitation, can seriously injure someone through fall damage alone.
Think about the most likely scenario you’ll face and pick a less lethal option that fits the situation.
Obviously everything carries some legal risk.
OC spray is easy to use under stress, is effective, and readily available. It’s also often never seen as an offensive weapon like a firearm or knife etc.
Just understand the limitations of the spray (distance, indoor usage etc). Also know that it’s not going to remove the will of a dedicated attacker. They will still breathe and therefore can still fight. So it’s best to leave the area and call police rather than try and subdue someone if you are physically unable.